SKYW Opening CRJ ATL (Lineholder)Base

The thing I don't understand is the perspective that you can only have one or the other... be pro-union or pro-management. I'll tell you right now that getting a union doesn't mean you are anti-company, or anti-management. I work at a unionized airline, and I drink the kool-aid just as much as anyone else. I have a lot of faith in our management team, and I'll give them 100% every day to ensure this company is competitive. I'll even go the "extra mile" more often than not. Even so, I'm glad we are part of a pilot's union.

pilot602 said:
But here's the thing that no one wants to admit. The product that airlines sell is the skill set of the pilots. We are the airline. Every other job (from bag throwing to management) is there to facilitate the pilot group moving an airplane from point A to point B. It might sound snooty (and I'm not trying to put down other job groups here, I'm really not) but it's the cold hard truth.

So if this expansion doesn't get extended to the people whose skills are being exploited what f'ing good is picking up new bases, new routes, etc?

And, in this case a base in ATL is one more giant step closer to that very gray line between scab and non-scab.
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I don't know, that doesn't really sound right to me. Yes, the pilots have a skill set that is unmatched by anyone else in the company, and we have more on the line in terms of medicals, proficiency checks, line checks, FAA observation rides, and so forth. However, I can't get to the gate and check everyone in, then go load the bags, and push back the airplane. I can likely do each task by itself, and I have in past jobs. But without the gate agent, ticket agent, ramp agents, and so forth, the plane isn't going anywhere. At least not with customers.

We are really all in this together. Looks at most of the cutbacks post-9/11... morale took a major blow because each work group was giving back different amounts, some were not unionized (forced cuts), some gave back nothing, and so forth. Management was pitting group against group. "Rampers and agents, tell the pilots they need to give us paycuts, because after all, you did! Why should they give nothing back after you gave so much to keep us alive?" See where I'm going with this?

It is important for all the various work groups to work together, just as much as it is for all the various pilot groups to work together. After all, the pilots and agents have just as much to lose if the company fails.
 
meritflyer said:
No such thing as "their flying'.

Welcome the business 101 where companies actually compete on price, value, and service.
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Well, you got the first one. If it was a combination of the three, Mesa would be begging for flying right now. Most airlines in the recent past have been looking for who will do it the cheapest. Now that they're finally getting burned and losing money on lost bags, cancelled flights and bumped passengers, they're wising up.

Simply put, if airline X wouldn't come in and say "Sure, we'll beat airline Y's price by $X.X million," pilots wouldn't be getting hacked off at the knees over and over again. It really is a race to the bottom. It's tough to fight for higher wages that at least keep up with inflation when there's a guy over your shoulder willing to do it for less than you're making now.
 
launchpad said:
No management team will give anyone a raise unless the majority of their competitors are also giving up some money. During the last couple of years, we've seen Comair and Mesaba give concessions and the airlines being downsized. We've seen numerous others with long-time stagnation in contract talks. With only 2 exceptions (ExpressJet and Horizon), there really aren't too many pilot groups getting raises or more flying, etc. etc.
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Well, I wouldn't say Horizon is getting more flying. They lost some to CHQ and now Lynx. Air Whisky got thier pay rates re-instated after management tried to pull a fast one. Mesaba really was given no choice, either take a pay cut or have a worse pay cut enforced by a bankrupcty court. ASA's been in contract negotiations for years and is mired in the mud with the NMB. Don't look for a presidential release for a possible strike until 2009, either. Pinnacle is either gonna get a pay raise or be in the same boat as ASA. Colgan got an across the board raise for FOs, but that's a union-busting tactic more than anything else. Tough for the FOs to vote union when the new masters are being so "generous." The only ones I've seen at the regional level taking massive concessions lately are the ones either in bankruptcy or with a serious threat looming over them, namely Mesaba and Comair. Who else were you thinking in this long list of people that have taken concessions to get flying?
Two airlines are hardly a "majority of competitors," especially since both airlines only have contracts with ONE partner each. The stagnation in contract talks has more to do with politics than anything. ASA would have struck LOOOONG ago if the gubment would let them, and Pinnacle is getting damn close to that now. Skywest is getting tons more flying, but very little raises going around. To me, that looks like the only people making money are the people with corner offices. If you're trying to stave off a union drive, probably not the best way to go about it.
 
kellwolf said:
Well, I wouldn't say Horizon is getting more flying. They lost some to CHQ and now Lynx. Air Whisky got thier pay rates re-instated after management tried to pull a fast one. Mesaba really was given no choice, either take a pay cut or have a worse pay cut enforced by a bankrupcty court. ASA's been in contract negotiations for years and is mired in the mud with the NMB. Don't look for a presidential release for a possible strike until 2009, either. Pinnacle is either gonna get a pay raise or be in the same boat as ASA. Colgan got an across the board raise for FOs, but that's a union-busting tactic more than anything else. Tough for the FOs to vote union when the new masters are being so "generous." The only ones I've seen at the regional level taking massive concessions lately are the ones either in bankruptcy or with a serious threat looming over them, namely Mesaba and Comair. Who else were you thinking in this long list of people that have taken concessions to get flying?
Two airlines are hardly a "majority of competitors," especially since both airlines only have contracts with ONE partner each. The stagnation in contract talks has more to do with politics than anything. ASA would have struck LOOOONG ago if the gubment would let them, and Pinnacle is getting damn close to that now. Skywest is getting tons more flying, but very little raises going around. To me, that looks like the only people making money are the people with corner offices. If you're trying to stave off a union drive, probably not the best way to go about it.
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I worded the part about horizon wrong...after everything is settled, they'll be getting more airplanes....plus they have a very good pay structure. ExpressJet got a raise last year (or was it the year before). Aside from that (and Skywest and Chicken Taco), the entire industry has been in either a state of stagnation or recession.

I didn't say a bunch of people have taken concessions..just Mesaba and Comair, but if you look at the last 5 years or so, not too many have gotten raises. The folks at CommutAir, Colgan, TransStates and Mesa have been negotiating/asking for more money or work rules and have been given the finger. Let's not forget the entire GoJet thing.

I completely forgot about the Air Whiskey debacle...the pinnacle people will be waiting for a little longer than they hope for the raise/no raise answer.

Let's not forget Big Sky, Great Lakes, Skyway, PSA, Piedmont, Eagle, or even Island Air (not that it's a fair comparison, but they are a regional in the U.S.). None of them have made any huge strides in growth/work rules/pay.

Again, all I'm saying is that the industry flow determines how much and when different pilot groups will get things they want. The last 5 years or so haven't been conducive to people getting raises or improved working conditions. The next two years will yield quite a bit of advancement in those areas before things go south again.
 
launchpad said:
I didn't say a bunch of people have taken concessions..just Mesaba and Comair, but if you look at the last 5 years or so, not too many have gotten raises. The folks at CommutAir, Colgan, TransStates and Mesa have been negotiating/asking for more money or work rules and have been given the finger. Let's not forget the entire GoJet thing.
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Colgan FOs got a raise earlier this year. Like I said, it's more of a union-busting tactic than a gift from management, though. CommutAir....non-union. Management at a non-union carrier isn't gonna raise wages until they can't get any more resumes in the mail. JO at Mesa has pretty much said that, too. The only thing keeping them in the "above $20/hr" range is the union contract. Mesa's contract isn't up, so it's REALLY tough to negotiate for pay raises when you aren't in negotiations. Look for them to be moving things up in the next year or so. That's more of an effect of the RLA, not the industry. One of the downsides of unionization is you can only ask for a raise when the contract is ammendable, but management can ask for concessions any time. IMO, it's not fair to say "they've been asking for a more money or work rules" as an arguement when they legally CAN'T unless managment opens negotiations early.

I completely forgot about the Air Whiskey debacle...the pinnacle people will be waiting for a little longer than they hope for the raise/no raise answer.
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I agree, but once again, it's an affect of the RLA, not really the industry. If it weren't for the stipulations in the RLA, we'd already either have pay raises, be on strike or looking for other jobs since the company would have gone under. ASA would be in the same situation.

Let's not forget Big Sky, Great Lakes, Skyway, PSA, Piedmont, Eagle, or even Island Air (not that it's a fair comparison, but they are a regional in the U.S.). None of them have made any huge strides in growth/work rules/pay.
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Once again, you're not really thinking it through. Big Sky and Great Lakes are both non-union (see CommutAir response). As long as there are FOs willing to work for $15 an hour, there's no reason for management to up the pay. PSA, PDT and Eagle LEGALLY CAN'T ASK FOR RAISES OR WORK RULE IMPROVEMENTS UNTIL THE CONTRACTS ARE UP. Especially for Eagle, that's gonna be a while.

Again, all I'm saying is that the industry flow determines how much and when different pilot groups will get things they want.
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Not exactly. When union contracts come up has more to do with it. If no massive amounts of contracts have been up for re-neogiations in the past 5 years, then there's no reason to expect that there would be huge strides in pay or benefits increases. Mesa's is coming due, we're in negotiations, and ASA has been tortured for 4 years already. Part of the problem is none of the labor groups can be released for self-help by the government, but management is free to impose whatever they want in a bankruptcy court. Just look at what's happening to the NWA FAs right now. If Mesa's contract were up and ASA hadn't been held up in neogitations, I think you WOULD have seen both places get pay increases. For the sheer heck of it, let's look at this:

XJT - pay increase b/c their contract was up within the past 5 years, now due again in 2010.
ASA - was ammendable in 2002, been in negotiations since. Would have seen an increase if not held up by red tape
CMR - got huge increases on their last contract, had them taken away thanks to bankruptcy
Mesa - contract is up this year. Couldn't bargain for wage or benefit increases for the last 5 years b/c their contract wasn't ammendable
Air Wisconsin - good pay, good work rules, contract due in 2011
Big Sky - non-ALPA, but pay is on par with comparable regionals
CommutAir - non-union
Colgan - non-union (for now)
Great Lakes - non-ALPA (according to APC, their contract was ammendable 6 years ago, but what the heck is going on with it?)
Horizon - Contract was ammendable in 2006, and is in negotiation. What? The bar might come up MORE?
Mesaba - good pay and work rules, also killed by a bankruptcy. Contract is ammendable in 2009, look for some SERIOUS pay back from these guys
Piedmont - ammendable in 2009
Pinnacle - ammdendable 2005, currently in negotiations
PSA - Ammendable in 2009
Skyway - Ammendable 2008
Trans States- Ammendable 2006 (any update on these?), whipsawed with GoJets.

So, with the union carriers, the pay and benefits go up about every 5-6 years, depending on when the contract was signed. The negotiatiors have to forecast what they think will happen with inflation, etc in the next 5 years when going for these contracts. Here at PCL, we're flying for 1999 wages. ASA's even worse. Is there anything we can do about? Nope, so it's not exactly fair to say it's economic forces keeping us down, it's legal and political forces that are doing so. The only ones that have any say-so in opening negotiations early is managment, and they aren't gonna voluntarily increase labor costs. They'll do it to DE-crease labor costs, though. PSA and Air Whisky were both asked by management for a semi-wage concession to acquire more flying. The pilot group at both said "No."

The last 5 years or so haven't been conducive to people getting raises or improved working conditions. The next two years will yield quite a bit of advancement in those areas before things go south again.
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True, but's it's because of the contracts coming due, not economic forces. Like I said, if it weren't for the political BS with PCL and ASA, things wouldn't be the status quo it has been for several years.
 
Another thing to think about, and why I feel most regionals won't change things for the better very much, is with things improving at the mainline level, more jobs at the next level will be opening up and thus people will still be willing to still work for $15-25 an hour because upgrades will be quick and people will put up with more when there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Just my opinion.
 
E_Dawg said:
Hootie that's really crappy man! Honestly from a big picture perspective my only 2 real complaints are pay (BIG complaint) and utilization during a trip. 3hr turns and 19hr layovers after a single leg are not my thing. Pay will go up (and it better, soon) and senority may take care of the second issue.
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Yeah I should have explained better, the reason why Im already so sick of Skywest's BS is because PBS here in SLC is ruthless and even though I spent 8 hours trying to fix my schedule for a legitimate family problem crew support says no.

This is Skywest's trip trading policy which you will hear.
"Thou shalt only trade trips for more work and higher credit"

Me: Hey I spent three hours on open time and just faxed you guys the appropriate paperwork."
Crew Support: "Well is it for higher credit than your original credit??"
Me: Yes
CS: Okay let us call you back

CS: We cannot complete your request because you are trading away your 700/900 trips for 200 trips.
Me: Waaaht?

three hours later

Me: Hey I just faxed in another form and this time I swapped 700 for 700 trip
CS: We'll call you back

CS: Um yeah, well , um you see you are trying to drop a 4 day trip for two 2 day trips
Me: Yeah but the credit is higher
CS: Um yeah, we can't let you trade out of a 4 day trip.

three hours later

Me: Okay I found a trip that I can swap into, because I NEED those 3 days off for a semi-family emergency situation.
CS: Can you hold?
CS: Yeah we can't let you trade away trips out of SLC.
Me: But I am sending in the paperwork that is for an out of domicile trade request. What else would that paperwork be for?
CS: Yeah....we just can't let you do that, we dont have coverage, is there anything else we could do to help.
Me: Well how about this trip that starts on the 4th, could I swap into this trip in the same base with the same credit, that STARTS AND ENDS ON THE EXACT SAME DAY, but it is commutable on both ends so I can be home for two more nights?
CS: Oh I wish we could, but we don't have coverage for that day
Me: (blacking out momentarily because of the stupidiousnessity of what these clowns are telling me) Are you kidding?
CS: Is there anything we could do to help?
Me: Im going to be using emergency days for that trip anyway so why not just let me swap trips so you guys don't have to cover both trips??????
CS: Is there anything we could do to help?


I actually had this conversation over the course of two regulars in CS, two supervisors, the rj future trip planner, and my chief.


How do I make that machine gun smiley face thingy??
 
That was painful to read Hootie. However it is sad that I am not all surprised. I called in sick the other day, and called yesterday to say I was ready to go back to work. The CS person asked if I could pick my trip up in SLC. I told her no, because I am DEN based and that leg is only 2 hours away from starting and I still at home. - long silence - It took her a minute to process that, then I asked her just to put me on reserve for the next two days.

Is there a requirement for IQ in CS? One day I will write my two of my most infamous stories when I have the time and I am calm enough to recollect them :)
 
What are you two crying about? You get to fly a jet! You should be thankful you even have this job. Who cares about anything else.
 
GaTechKid said:
Problems like hootie's occured at Colgan as well. Unfortunately, I'm sure it happens at most airlines.
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Ask Captain Bob what his Chief Pilot did for him when he was out on FMLA. Ask my roomate what ExpressJet Management did for him for his new baby girl.

Colgan and Skywest non-ALPA carriers, they can do what the scheduler feels.
 
I use Colgan and SkyWest because those are airlines I have firsthand experience with. I say other airlines since I have heard stories from other pilots who work there(friends, jumpseaters, etc.).

This isn't a union issue.
 
Even though we have a great contract (we have better work rules than many majors, just not the pay), scheduling can legally make your life hell. We are just very fortunate that our management is fairly compassionate to the needs of the pilot group, within reason.

Remember, Mesa is also ALPA. Look at how well that is working out for them. I heard a rumor that they have over 3000 outstanding grievances?

Southwest and UPS have independent unions. Look at how great those companies are doing. A lot of it has to do with a great management team and a unified pilot group. ALPA cannot solve all problems, but it can provide the tools for a unified pilot group with respectable management to achieve many great things.
 
"I heard a rumor that they have over 3000 outstanding grievances?"

"...UPS have independent unions. Look at how great those companies are doing"

Yeah....ummm. Hate to burst yer bubble but if you want to get into a comparasion between ALPA and the IPA on grievances, they recently came out and said we had like 10 times as many as a certain legacy airline. Just cause we're not ALPA and the company is doing well doesn't mean things with the pilot group are hunky dory.

I'm not complaining, mind you, just don't like some of your assumptions....
 
Interesting; I didn't know about the grievances. I wasn't assuming anything, just developing an opinion based on information I get from people at the company, that's all.
 
With us, it really depends on who you get on the phone. Some CS will help, some really won't. Part of it is because they're scared to death to help, and part of it is because people that live in this part of the country generally don't want to be bothered going above and beyond what is merely required of them (look at our gate agents for a perfect example there). That being said, we don't have a requirement for swapping ONLY for more credit. The only requirement we have is coverage. I know a LOT of guys that don't have problems swapping trips for open time. IMO, if it's in open time, you're only swapping one uncovered trip for another one. If it's still in open time, obviously no one can really take it. Maybe the trip you're swapping is a better fit for someone.
 
I'll keep it civil. . . I promise.

Rumot has it, that they are 900 series birds. Okay, so, that's slightly comforting to this Atlanta local, who wants to fly for a local 121 operator instead of having to commute (not a bad thing to hope and plan for right? lol)

Anyway - considering that the Rumot is that they are 900 series birds coming to ATL, surely they will not be using them on -200 series routes that are presently flown by ASA, they may - be used on some of the longer -700 series routes that are presently being flown by ASA.

So the threat matrix is as follows. Potential for SKW -900 birds to take over some of the -700 series routes is in the yellow category (marginal). Potential for SKW -900 birds to take over some of the -200 series routes is in the red categroy (not going to happen). So, in the long run there is only a very small chance that flying presently done by ASA, is being threatened by SKW's ATL base move of -900 series aircraft. . .

Eh?

Now, the monkey wrench, what if the rumot is wrong - and it isn't -900 series. EEEKJ!
 
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