I'm a CFI right now with about 380 hours total time. I'm 23 years old in very good shape and have a 4-year college degree. I'd love to fly C-130's, C-5's, F-14's, T-34's, A-10s, and stuff like that. If I were to sign up and join today, would I have a chance to fly planes like this, or are jobs like that only for the "superstars" who joined when they were 17, or who went to west point or something like that? Would my civilian CFI experience mean anything, or would I have to start over again from scratch? I don't mind spending a few months going through the generic basic training stuff, but I'd rather not spend a few YEARS doing so before getting to fly.
does the military have anything for me?
- Thread starter butt
- Start date
Chewie von Nubbins
New Member
Not sure, Dude. If I were you, I would call an officer recruiter for either the Navy or Air Force. I know a few years ago that they changed the way they did things. Before 2000, it was possible to sign a 6 year contract and get all of your training and then you could get out and go fly for a heavy. Now, I believe that you would have to sign at least an 8 or 10 year contract if they pipeline you to fly their airplanes. This is one of the reasons why there is a hiring frenzy now for airline pilots....no more steady pipeline of military guys for hire that are all trained up.
Also, keep in mind...the military functions totally differently than the civilian world. If you by some odd chance fail a test twice and they washed you out, you are still obligated to that contract that you signed. No exception.
Could you live with the fact that "if" you were unlucky and washed out of flight training that you would end up serving as a Supply Officer for 8 to 10 years? If you are not willing to take that risk, then considering flying in the military is probably not for you. In your situation, you have a significant advantage over most others because of all of your previous training, but the washout rate in the military is purposely high for a reason. I don't have the stats on washout rate, but I am pretty sure that it is pretty close to the Navy Seal washout rate.
I served with many, many ex-pilot pipeline officers. Also served with almost as many Seal washouts in the enlisted ranks as well.
Good luck in getting the answers that YOU need in your consideration. Hope this helps.
Also, keep in mind...the military functions totally differently than the civilian world. If you by some odd chance fail a test twice and they washed you out, you are still obligated to that contract that you signed. No exception.
Could you live with the fact that "if" you were unlucky and washed out of flight training that you would end up serving as a Supply Officer for 8 to 10 years? If you are not willing to take that risk, then considering flying in the military is probably not for you. In your situation, you have a significant advantage over most others because of all of your previous training, but the washout rate in the military is purposely high for a reason. I don't have the stats on washout rate, but I am pretty sure that it is pretty close to the Navy Seal washout rate.
I served with many, many ex-pilot pipeline officers. Also served with almost as many Seal washouts in the enlisted ranks as well.
Good luck in getting the answers that YOU need in your consideration. Hope this helps.
What do you have for the military?
Just a little secret though....You won't be flying any F14's, they have been retired.
Give a read to this perspective:
http://www.jetcareers.com/content/view/55/77/
MikeD kind of went that route. Flew freight and decided later to join the military. MikeD is BadA$$ and has flow the A10 and the F117, not sure what airframe he is on now. He has gone deep, deep, undercover.
MikeD...Where you at??
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
Here's the skinny on how it works, dude:
There's Active Duty military and there's also Guard and Reserves. If you sign up for active duty, you will go where ever and fly whatever they need you to fly. For example, the Air Force will send you to Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT). After about 6 months, you will "bid" whatever airframes are available. The best in that current class will get their first choice of what's available at the time. Basically, if only C-5s need pilots at the time, everybody will pipeline to C-5s. If F-16s are the only airframes that need pilots, then, to an extent, everybody will head in that direction. It's usually a mix- 2 C-5, 3 F-16, 4 F-22, 1 B-1, 3 C-130, 3 KC-135 etc...
If you interview to fly for Guard or Reserves, you have to interview with the unit you want to fly for. For example, the Wisconsin Air National Guard has two Wings. One, the 115 FW (Madison), has F-16s. The other, the 128 ARW (Milwaukee), has KC-135s. The only way to end up flying for either of those units is to interview with them and get hired. You go to UPT with the active duty peeps but know, the whole time, what and where you will be flying.
For the Air Force side, only 200 hours of your flight time means anything at all. It will help you get the job, period. Once you get to UPT, your flight time means nothing. You start from the bottom. It certainly helps to have good stick and rudder skills, though.
There's Active Duty military and there's also Guard and Reserves. If you sign up for active duty, you will go where ever and fly whatever they need you to fly. For example, the Air Force will send you to Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT). After about 6 months, you will "bid" whatever airframes are available. The best in that current class will get their first choice of what's available at the time. Basically, if only C-5s need pilots at the time, everybody will pipeline to C-5s. If F-16s are the only airframes that need pilots, then, to an extent, everybody will head in that direction. It's usually a mix- 2 C-5, 3 F-16, 4 F-22, 1 B-1, 3 C-130, 3 KC-135 etc...
If you interview to fly for Guard or Reserves, you have to interview with the unit you want to fly for. For example, the Wisconsin Air National Guard has two Wings. One, the 115 FW (Madison), has F-16s. The other, the 128 ARW (Milwaukee), has KC-135s. The only way to end up flying for either of those units is to interview with them and get hired. You go to UPT with the active duty peeps but know, the whole time, what and where you will be flying.
For the Air Force side, only 200 hours of your flight time means anything at all. It will help you get the job, period. Once you get to UPT, your flight time means nothing. You start from the bottom. It certainly helps to have good stick and rudder skills, though.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
Here's an example of an "off-the-street" route (Air Force).
To start you have at least a PPL and a 4-year degree. The PPL and 200 hours will help you interview, because the Air Force sends students to UPT with at least a PPL. If you get hired without flight time, the AF will pay for your PPL
1. Go to a recruiter. Tell them you want to be a pilot and will only do that, nothing else. They will set you up to take the AFOQT (Air Force Officer Qualification Test). It's a written test that will take a few hours. Ask the recruiter where you can find a study guide. After that you will take a hand-eye coordination test. There's a new name for it, can't remember though. With those two items done, you will begin to put an application package together.
2. Apply with Active Duty if you would like and/or put application packages together for Guard and/or Reserve units of your choice. Each unit differs ever so slightly in what they want in a package, but the basics are: college transcripts, copy of pilot's license, PCSM scores (AFOQT/hand-eye), letter's of recommendation (important), cover letter, and maybe an application. Each Guard and Reserve unit has it's own interview dates, typically during a Drill Weekend. The Active Duty Air Force has set hiring board dates also.
3. Interview
4. Initial Flying Physical (can be done before interviewing with some Guard and Reserve units)
5. Go to AMS (Academy of Military Science) for 6 weeks or OTS (Officer Training School) for 12 weeks and become an officer.
Up to this point can be 5 months to 2 years from the point of visiting the recruiter for the first time, depending on when the interview was in relation to the fiscal training dates.
6. Go to UPT (13 months)
10 year committment begins at this point
7. Go to flight school for the airplane you will be flying
To start you have at least a PPL and a 4-year degree. The PPL and 200 hours will help you interview, because the Air Force sends students to UPT with at least a PPL. If you get hired without flight time, the AF will pay for your PPL
1. Go to a recruiter. Tell them you want to be a pilot and will only do that, nothing else. They will set you up to take the AFOQT (Air Force Officer Qualification Test). It's a written test that will take a few hours. Ask the recruiter where you can find a study guide. After that you will take a hand-eye coordination test. There's a new name for it, can't remember though. With those two items done, you will begin to put an application package together.
2. Apply with Active Duty if you would like and/or put application packages together for Guard and/or Reserve units of your choice. Each unit differs ever so slightly in what they want in a package, but the basics are: college transcripts, copy of pilot's license, PCSM scores (AFOQT/hand-eye), letter's of recommendation (important), cover letter, and maybe an application. Each Guard and Reserve unit has it's own interview dates, typically during a Drill Weekend. The Active Duty Air Force has set hiring board dates also.
3. Interview
4. Initial Flying Physical (can be done before interviewing with some Guard and Reserve units)
5. Go to AMS (Academy of Military Science) for 6 weeks or OTS (Officer Training School) for 12 weeks and become an officer.
Up to this point can be 5 months to 2 years from the point of visiting the recruiter for the first time, depending on when the interview was in relation to the fiscal training dates.
6. Go to UPT (13 months)
10 year committment begins at this point
7. Go to flight school for the airplane you will be flying
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
If your primary concern is whether or not the military has anything for you, it's not the place for you.
the military is for people who sign away 10 years of their life without knowing what any of it entails?
There's a difference in asking "does the military have anything for me?" vs "What is the career path of a USAF or USN pilot?" or "What is all entailed in becoming a pilot in todays armed forces?"
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
That wasn't your question!
It's called the military SERVICE. You serve, not them.
BTW, ever consider The World's Finest Marine Corps? 4th largest Air Force in the world (and not all helicopters, like people think).
Lloyd, I'm sure you are not suggesting serving blindly without any interest at all in your own life/ career!
Let's put this right out front: Lloyd is right. Once you're in, you serve at the pleasure of your service. For how many ever years you sign up for you MUST be prepared for any "needs of the [insert name of service]" assignments, you must be prepared to work outside your specialty, and you must be prepared to do WHATEVER your service wants you do to so long as its ethical and legal.
That being said, I think it is perfectly acceptable to get as much as you can from the service. Training is tough, deployments abound, you lose some personal freedoms, you don't make very much money, and you are under a (mostly) iron-clad contract. You join knowing all the pitfalls that can happen. You join to serve.
The military has tremendous opportunities though. You need to seek these opportunities out and actively pursue them to better yourself. I have no respect for a guy who gets stuck manning a radar station in Alaska for four years and is miserable if he never once actively tried to manage his career. I'm not saying he should whine, but he should request, through channels, a better assignment.
In no particular order, here is what I've managed to get for myself, all while serving faithfully in the Army:
- A chance to be an Army infantryman. Heck of an experience.
- A fully paid college degree.
- Fully paid flight training.
- Fully paid leadership training, development, and practical application. Seriously, this is a BIG thing. Corporations spend lots of money trying to train their leaders to be leaders.
- Fully funded specialty schools, to include jumping out of planes and helicopters.
- With the exception of Iraq and Afghanistan, I have gotten every single assignment I wanted. Well, let me clarify that. I have gotten the physical location/unit I wanted. I've spent plenty of time in jobs I didn't want, but worked hard until someone saw fit to give me the good jobs.
So yeah, you really need not join the military until you have fully researched ALL the pros and cons. Like Lloyd says, the number one thing you have to accept right off the bat, is that you have to want to serve. Because there will be plenty of times when you get deployed, get put in bad assignments, or are forced to work outside your specialty.
But, for everything we do, we deserve to be taken care of too.
Let's put this right out front: Lloyd is right. Once you're in, you serve at the pleasure of your service. For how many ever years you sign up for you MUST be prepared for any "needs of the [insert name of service]" assignments, you must be prepared to work outside your specialty, and you must be prepared to do WHATEVER your service wants you do to so long as its ethical and legal.
That being said, I think it is perfectly acceptable to get as much as you can from the service. Training is tough, deployments abound, you lose some personal freedoms, you don't make very much money, and you are under a (mostly) iron-clad contract. You join knowing all the pitfalls that can happen. You join to serve.
The military has tremendous opportunities though. You need to seek these opportunities out and actively pursue them to better yourself. I have no respect for a guy who gets stuck manning a radar station in Alaska for four years and is miserable if he never once actively tried to manage his career. I'm not saying he should whine, but he should request, through channels, a better assignment.
In no particular order, here is what I've managed to get for myself, all while serving faithfully in the Army:
- A chance to be an Army infantryman. Heck of an experience.
- A fully paid college degree.
- Fully paid flight training.
- Fully paid leadership training, development, and practical application. Seriously, this is a BIG thing. Corporations spend lots of money trying to train their leaders to be leaders.
- Fully funded specialty schools, to include jumping out of planes and helicopters.
- With the exception of Iraq and Afghanistan, I have gotten every single assignment I wanted. Well, let me clarify that. I have gotten the physical location/unit I wanted. I've spent plenty of time in jobs I didn't want, but worked hard until someone saw fit to give me the good jobs.
So yeah, you really need not join the military until you have fully researched ALL the pros and cons. Like Lloyd says, the number one thing you have to accept right off the bat, is that you have to want to serve. Because there will be plenty of times when you get deployed, get put in bad assignments, or are forced to work outside your specialty.
But, for everything we do, we deserve to be taken care of too.
And another thing along those lines, if you are stuck somewhere, you should take advantage of the situation and look at all you can do to take as much as you can away from it.
For example, a friend was stuck in a remote base in Korea for a year. During that time, he got his Master's degree, visited the countryside on weekends, and ended up getting a better assignment because of the fact that he threw himself 110% into his assignment and got excellent performance reviews. He was an engineer like me, but they stuck him in a command post assignment because they were undermanned in comm officers. He's now on the fast track to making LTC. He could have easily said "Screw it, I'm stuck here" but instead did all he could to make the time pass quickly and his career is a lot better off because of it.
I couldn't believe the number of people who told me Korea sucked and never once bothered to leave the base and take advantage of the Korean culture. Everything is what you want to make of it.
One final story from my experience. I had an NCO sort of working for me who was a computer whiz. However, his AFSC was that of a radar specialist. We wanted to bring him into our unit as a computer tech, but the rules that they gave us was that this guy had to be promoted to SSgt before he could be considered for the assignment. To get promoted to SSgt, he had to take the radar test. So, we told this guy, "Hey, take the radar test, get promoted, we'll bring you over to this slot, and then you are all set." But, he didn't want to study, didn't even try to pass the test, and until he was promoted, we had our hands tied in trying to get him. It's like, yeah, the rules are stupid, but if that is what it takes to get ahead, do the stupid task to make it happen.
There are a lot of crappy assignments. I had one closing a base, and that was a really crappy assignment. However, there was a chance for me to learn things there that I wouldn't learn in any other situation, and it quickly got around that I could do just about anything. Like ChinookDriver said, you get a crappy assignment, do what you can to be noticed, and eventually someone will say, "Hey, why are we wasting this guy on THAT job?"
I think the biggest thing, though, is to ask yourself what you would do if tomorrow you could no longer fly in the military. A reduction in force, a medical disqualification, overmanning of pilots, or the need to do career broadening are all very real possibilities, and would take you out of the cockpit in a heartbeat. You have to willing and ready to continue to serve your obligation in that event, and if your answer to that is "no", then I would dissuade you from military service.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Oh, No Sir - not at all! You have to drive your own career! That being said, you have to be willing to take all of the bumps and hurdles that may lie on the road!
Yes, yes you do. Otherwise you will be miserable.
JacksonHandy
Well-Known Member
Mike Lewis,
You're an engineer?:nana2: Army or Air Force? I'm an engineer too, seems like if you're here, than you're in the same position I am, or rather you were in.
I'm an Army guy, with 20th Engineer Brigade, currently deployed, we've dealt with those RED HORSE dudes before though. They certify our Assault Landing Zone construction. Nothing like the "boot heel" CBR test
-->Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
You're an engineer?:nana2: Army or Air Force? I'm an engineer too, seems like if you're here, than you're in the same position I am, or rather you were in.
I'm an Army guy, with 20th Engineer Brigade, currently deployed, we've dealt with those RED HORSE dudes before though. They certify our Assault Landing Zone construction. Nothing like the "boot heel" CBR test
-->Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Chewie von Nubbins
New Member
What do you have for the military?
Just a little secret though....You won't be flying any F14's, they have been retired.
Give a read to this perspective:
http://www.jetcareers.com/content/view/55/77/
MikeD kind of went that route. Flew freight and decided later to join the military. MikeD is BadA$$ and has flow the A10 and the F117, not sure what airframe he is on now. He has gone deep, deep, undercover.
MikeD...Where you at??
JEP - What's with the Ed Hockulee Avator? That is one of the only donkey ref. that actually looks like a pro football player.
Actually, I wish I was engineer like you are. I was in the AF, and I was actually a developmental engineer working in the R&D labs and working with System Program Offices (SPOs) doing acquisitions. Mostly working with contractors trying to avoid buying $500 hammers and stuff like that.
I've worked with the RED HORSE guys at Hurlburt, and a bunch of my friends worked as engineers in the EIG (Engineering and Installation Group) when I was at Griffiss AFB. I tried on several occasions to cross-train from a developmental engineer to a comm engineer to be able to get into the EIG and do the cool stuff they do, like install runway lights, radar systems, and stuff like that. From there I could then get into RED HORSE and do the combat engineering.
Unfortunately for me, though, there are a lot more slots in that area for civil engineers instead of electrical, which is what I was. And around 1995, they combined the old comm engineers and comm officers into the 33C specialty, which made it heavily overmanned, which pretty much killed any chance I had of getting out of acquisitions.
I did get to deploy on a few occasions and install software updates in the field for some of our existing systems, and I wish I could have had an opportunity to do more of that.
Thanks for asking. I have tremendous respect for you guys. Keep up the good work!
Just a little inside joke with the members of my football crew. In the fall I am a high school football official.
He is one of the best referees in my opinion. Except for the fact that his shirts always seem to be a little small.
The running joke in our crew is WWED?
What Would Ed Do?
As I mentioned in another thread:
Ed Hochuli
Mike Carey
Johhny Greer
and then the rest......
Chewie von Nubbins
New Member
Just a little inside joke with the members of my football crew. In the fall I am a high school football official.
He is one of the best referees in my opinion. Except for the fact that his shirts always seem to be a little small.
The running joke in our crew is WWED?
What Would Ed Do?
As I mentioned in another thread:
Ed Hochuli
Mike Carey
Johhny Greer
and then the rest......
Lol. Quite a bit off subject, but damn funny. Ed Hochuli (correctly spelled)..did you see the 6 days till Sunday on NFL Network featuring none other than Ed himself? The man was a monster on the bench press.
Mike Carey..nobody can call away a situation like this donkey. Definitely sold me when he explained the Sean Taylor spitting incident on Michael Pittman a couple years ago.
But nobody, I mean nobody can explain away an obscure personal foul like Bernie Kukar. Not that his explanations were that great, it was his Minnesota/Wisconson accent. Especially when he was flustered and explaining the 15 yard foul. Too bad he retired before last season. Gonna miss him.
Bernie, yes a local celeb in the officiating world. He lives not to far from where I am at, just down the freeway. His son is now aNFL official as well.
thestaton
New Member
Here's some thought as well, from my time in the Air Force flying on the C-5. Its a massive plane, with a huge crew. AVG is around 12 / 14+.
If you are stationed in Dover these are the places you are going to visit almost every trip and in this order.
Charleston, SC. Rota Spain, Desert.
I did this for 3 years as a Load and let me tell you the fun times are over. There's no more playing pool with the crew, cards, petty gambling, xbox tournaments, mischief, tom foolery. Its seriously over.
For the past year, it's been about staying in your hotel room and saving your money.
Having such a huge crew has its advantages but one giant disadvantage. You get any A/C who's a prick and your entire 10 days are going to be miserable. Imagine getting your brief and this is the first thing out his mouth... "This is not a crew plane, this is now a autocratic democracy." I seriously would of thrown the guy out 7L if given the opportunity. But he's off flying UAV's now, but there are people like him every where I guess.
As a new pilot your first year you are going to be the cruise guy. You'll get 1 T/O, and Landing per mission. The rest you'll spend at cruise... Or sleeping with the loads
Want to learn how to sleep on a plane, get some pointers from a load!
As soon as you are qualified for Co-Pilot you'll find yourself with an office job doing something, but I'm going to guess its typing on a computer.
Generally around Dover our pilots stick around then go on to another air frame... So don't get to used to the C-5...
Now, with all of this said these are the cons. Now beyond the fact what others have said that if you lose your job, but this is what happens if you keep your job.
Here are the pros
Having a huge crew, is a great opportunity to meet a bunch of awesome people. I have more respect for the people I've flown with over the past 3 years. Positive attitudes, and the motivation to get things done just brings a huge smile to my face.
I don't consider what I've done to compare to anything the Helo guys go through but we did get shot at a couple of times, and the training / leadership you'll receive is invaluable. Calling out that you see Triple AAA and having the pilots perform there job perfectly again just brings a huge smile to my face. I never once doubted there decisions and would follow them anywhere.
You won't get deployed on the C-5, which is a very nice perk.
You'll stay at outstanding hotels, especially in Kuwait.
The plane is getting old, so if you don't mind making money, it will help you!
In summary, its not what the military can do for you. Its what you can / want to do for it.
If you are stationed in Dover these are the places you are going to visit almost every trip and in this order.
Charleston, SC. Rota Spain, Desert.
I did this for 3 years as a Load and let me tell you the fun times are over. There's no more playing pool with the crew, cards, petty gambling, xbox tournaments, mischief, tom foolery. Its seriously over.
For the past year, it's been about staying in your hotel room and saving your money.
Having such a huge crew has its advantages but one giant disadvantage. You get any A/C who's a prick and your entire 10 days are going to be miserable. Imagine getting your brief and this is the first thing out his mouth... "This is not a crew plane, this is now a autocratic democracy." I seriously would of thrown the guy out 7L if given the opportunity. But he's off flying UAV's now, but there are people like him every where I guess.
As a new pilot your first year you are going to be the cruise guy. You'll get 1 T/O, and Landing per mission. The rest you'll spend at cruise... Or sleeping with the loads
Want to learn how to sleep on a plane, get some pointers from a load!As soon as you are qualified for Co-Pilot you'll find yourself with an office job doing something, but I'm going to guess its typing on a computer.
Generally around Dover our pilots stick around then go on to another air frame... So don't get to used to the C-5...
Now, with all of this said these are the cons. Now beyond the fact what others have said that if you lose your job, but this is what happens if you keep your job.
Here are the pros
Having a huge crew, is a great opportunity to meet a bunch of awesome people. I have more respect for the people I've flown with over the past 3 years. Positive attitudes, and the motivation to get things done just brings a huge smile to my face.
I don't consider what I've done to compare to anything the Helo guys go through but we did get shot at a couple of times, and the training / leadership you'll receive is invaluable. Calling out that you see Triple AAA and having the pilots perform there job perfectly again just brings a huge smile to my face. I never once doubted there decisions and would follow them anywhere.
You won't get deployed on the C-5, which is a very nice perk.
You'll stay at outstanding hotels, especially in Kuwait.
The plane is getting old, so if you don't mind making money, it will help you!
In summary, its not what the military can do for you. Its what you can / want to do for it.