Fuel reserves

E

ElyJs

New Member
How much fuel do you use as reserve for standard trips, both regional and mainline? Do they dispatch you with the minimum legal reserves? Obviously cost cutting is managment's number one priority and every pound helps. All of my flying up to this point I almost always try and land with at least a hour of fuel remaining. How will this change when I starting flying for a 121 or 135 operator?

-Jason
 
An hour in the tanks when we touch down if we don't need an alternate, or 45 minutes in the tanks when we put the wheels down AT the alternate after flying to the destination.
 
jtrain609 said:
An hour in the tanks when we touch down if we don't need an alternate, or 45 minutes in the tanks when we put the wheels down AT the alternate after flying to the destination.
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So you guys fuel at every stop? Thought they might no do that for quicker turn arounds.
 
Not nearly. We don't have any runs outta this base in my equipment that require adding fuel away from base.
 
I know that the USairways flights tanker extra fuel to some of the carribean islands with really expensive fuel because it saves them $$.
 
jtrain609 said:
Not nearly. We don't have any runs outta this base in my equipment that require adding fuel away from base.
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So how does that work if you have an hour of fuel when you touch down, you want an hour of fuel when you touch down at the next place, but you don't want to add fuel?

Perhaps you meant "more than an hour of fuel at touchdown" - in which case you're tankering fuel which may, or may not, be the most cost effective solution.
 
ElyJs said:
How much fuel do you use as reserve for standard trips, both regional and mainline? Do they dispatch you with the minimum legal reserves? Obviously cost cutting is managment's number one priority and every pound helps. All of my flying up to this point I almost always try and land with at least a hour of fuel remaining. How will this change when I starting flying for a 121 or 135 operator?

-Jason
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Legal minimums - any more and you're burning fuel to carry fuel. That's not to say that many pilots don't add a few pounds for the wife and kids, but if the airline had it's way we'd be landing on fumes, regulations or no regulations.....
 
I like to see at least 2800 pounds on landing. Our 45 minute legal reserve is right around 2000, but the way flying goes on the east coast you get slowed down and turned for spacing all the time. It costs them something like 2 extra pounds of gas to cart around the extra 800. We seem to go back and forth with dispatch. Every few months they get some memo that says to cut back on fuel so they start shorting us. We complain and ask for more and after a few months they start increasing the numbers again.

The lowest I ever landed with was 1200 pounds. It was a double divert from DCA to IAD to PHL. They vectored us all over the Washington Metro area at 6000. We landed on 27R in PHL with winds gusting to 40. Didn't really have any option though. I blame it mostly on my inexperience even letting a captain make the series of decisions that allowed us to get there.
 
CFIse said:
So how does that work if you have an hour of fuel when you touch down, you want an hour of fuel when you touch down at the next place, but you don't want to add fuel?

Perhaps you meant "more than an hour of fuel at touchdown" - in which case you're tankering fuel which may, or may not, be the most cost effective solution.
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A few things.

He said reserves, which obviously means AT LEAST what I stated. Maybe I wasn't clear.

Further, do YOU trust piston engine fuel gauges with your life? We always leave our bases full.
 
Tankering fuel... Carrying around a bunch of extra fuel can burn a bunch of extra fuel. Better hope the bean counters have all the info here.
 
The first person the chimes in and says that they don't depart on flights in piston planes without full tanks is either:

1. Stupid

2. Lying

3. Aware of EXACTLY how much fuel was in the plane because they were the last ones to fly it

4. Flying with a VERY good fuel totalizer, which is a device I've never flown with.
 
I don't think we've ever left the ground with burn off + reserves + holding + 800 lbs. "extra" fuel. They're realllllllllly conservative here. We also don't do single engine taxis. Luckily fuel isn't something we fight for here. The "norm" here is alternates when it's 5000 BR with forecast to get better and 1000 lbs of extra ramp fuel "just because". It is wasteful sometimes though, and I'm sure US Air certainly notices it. But our company "doesn't pay for fuel" so it's not a consideration.
 
jtrain609 said:
The first person the chimes in and says that they don't depart on flights in piston planes without full tanks is either:

1. Stupid

2. Lying

3. Aware of EXACTLY how much fuel was in the plane because they were the last ones to fly it

4. Flying with a VERY good fuel totalizer, which is a device I've never flown with.
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Well I must be the first one if those are the only choices. I trust the gauges in our fleet, and rarely top off an aircraft unless it's benificial to do so for monitary reasons.

In a baron, if I top it off there's like 400 lbs or less left for work, and that's just not going to cut it most of the time.
 
Do you have stock Beechcraft gauges in there? The stock Piper ones in our Chieftain's blow and shouldn't be trusted for anything but a very rough estimate of what's in the tanks.

We'll leave cargo behind if we have to out of our base to make sure we've got full tanks leaving a base.
 
Yup, stock beech and piper gauges. They've been pretty darn accurate in everything I've flown here. The chieftan has topped tanks more often though, because those suckers burn a lot of gas and have smaller tanks.
 
wheelsup said:
I don't think we've ever left the ground with burn off + reserves + holding + 800 lbs. "extra" fuel. They're realllllllllly conservative here. We also don't do single engine taxis. Luckily fuel isn't something we fight for here. The "norm" here is alternates when it's 5000 BR with forecast to get better and 1000 lbs of extra ramp fuel "just because". It is wasteful sometimes though, and I'm sure US Air certainly notices it. But our company "doesn't pay for fuel" so it's not a consideration.
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Yes - but it's pay me now or pay me later. Don't think US Air isn't watching how much fuel their regional partners are burning and don't think that when it comes to contract renewal or contract concessions (customer to regional, not pilot contract) that the issue won't come up that "partner A is burning more than partner B" for the same trips.

I am always of the hope that somebody somewhere is doing the math and watching numbers and making the tradeoff for dispatching with minimum fuel against the diverts for minimum fuel. I know it all adds up across the fleet, but when we divert we burn a TON of extra fuel, all for not carrying 15 minutes of fuel we could have used to hold. But I'm not sure anybody IS looking at it, it just sounds good that it costs X dollars for each "extra" 100 pounds and so we cut the fuel load to the bone.......
 
jtrain609 said:
The first person the chimes in and says that they don't depart on flights in piston planes without full tanks is either:

1. Stupid
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Mmm . . . not necessarily.

2. Lying
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No, Sir! :)

3. Aware of EXACTLY how much fuel was in the plane because they were the last ones to fly it
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Is it possible to know exactly how much fuel is in the tanks when somebody else flew it?

4. Flying with a VERY good fuel totalizer, which is a device I've never flown with.
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I'll tell you, I've flown with those, and they're SWEET!!!!

At my company, in the 210, we dipped the tanks. You know, little hollow plastic tube with numbers on it. We have a chart that allows us to use that stick and know exactly how much fuel is in the tanks. Basically, in the 210, I'd get enough gas to be legal, plus any extra for weather, deviations, and ATL vectors . . . :insane:

Now, the Baron is a little bit more complicated. Because of the shape of the wing tanks, there's no way to dip them. As Averyrm stated, with full tanks, you don't have much room for work. I think in the one I've been flying this week, I can throw 557 pounds of cargo in the back with full fuel. Now, sometimes that's enough. Other times, that's just not going to cut it. So, you have to find another way to determine how much fuel is in the tanks. Sometimes, as much as some people don't like it, it may mean knowing exactly how long the previous pilot flew, and when it was last topped off.
 
As I understand it, tankering fuel in a plane with a lighter GTOW such as a pa31 does not cost nearly as much percent-burned/percent-tankered as it does in a larger aircraft. Is this accurate? If so, departing with a little extra gas in a light twin may not be nearly as bad for the bottom line as it would be in a larger plane.
 
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