Pinnacle: Hiring @ 300 hr TT for UND students

Yeah, it was mentioned in my class as well. Most of the kids don't know enough about aviation yet to know more about this. They automatically assume BIG BUCKS and BIG JETS!
 
MrLeisure757 said:
Yeah, it was mentioned in my class as well. Most of the kids don't know enough about aviation yet to know more about this. They automatically assume BIG BUCKS and BIG JETS!
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My god, it's not even knowing about aviation, it's knowing about LIFE in general. I can't believe someone would be so excited for such a miserable job offer! If what you're looking for is money, you can find so many other [non-aviation] jobs that pay you more than that. I find it disgusting how people are willing to work for a misery these days!
 
Here is what worries me as someone who potentially could decide to go to the regionals someday.

Salaries are decreasing. Not increasing like they should with inflation. If you think 20,000 is a really bad starting wage now. Whats 20,000 going to be in four years? Becoming an Airline pilot is cool but at the end of the day, you still need to put food on your table and provide shelter. Pretty soon many pilots will have family obligations as well.

In an average year inflation moves up at about 3 percent. When I finish at UND that 20,000 that I will make pre tax will be worth about what 18,000 is worth. Now factor in at least 3% of that going towards income tax and what you make in todays dollars is even lower. It is a scary thought. People barely live on that if they have no loans. Imagine whats that going to be like while paying back 60,000 to 80,000k. I strongly believe that many people at UND are setting them up for financial disaster by putting all there eggs in one basket in Aviation while racking up debt. I feel bad. I understand that debt is a lot of peoples only choice but please major in something outside of Aviation and do your self a favor. In aviation, the value is not the degree but your ratings and time.

A lot of people at UND do not understand that the reason airlines are lowering mins is because less pilots are willing to spend the huge initial investment for a career field where the compensation does not cover the investment for several years down the line. Huge money for a shrinking quality of life means more demand. Pinnacle airliners hiring first officers at 200-300 hours is horrible for the industry.

These are just some of the concerns I have with heading straight to the regionals like so many students are clamoring for the chance now.
 
That and there's lots of suckers that for whatever reason, think it's worth it to live the crap life to get to the majors. Where does one with these extremely flawed idea draw the line? If they're willing to sell themselves out(and contribute to the further degradation of this profession) to get to the regionals, are they willing to do the same to get on at a major as well. How about an upgrade?

I really want to smack some people upside the head sometimes. They are so clueless, it's completely impossible to even try to educate them in one debate. You will NOT learn about this industry from UND. I've learned WAY more on this website alone about this industry than airtrans and airline ops could even come close to teaching me.

Although, Robertson does offer one peace of sound advice, and that is to not jump into things that sound like a good deal and to take time to study the companies you're considering to work for.
 
Booker said:
Yeah, a plane would need, like, four engines to be considered "large." :p
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What's the min. weight to be considered large again. Isn't it something like 16,000? I'm too lazy to look it up right now. I think the CRJ fits into that. Reg wise, I think it's large. Everything else considered, it's a lawn dart at best. :D
 
ZUKO said:
A lot of people at UND do not understand that the reason airlines are lowering mins is because less pilots are willing to spend the huge initial investment for a career field where the compensation does not cover the investment for several years down the line. Huge money for a shrinking quality of life means more demand. Pinnacle airliners hiring first officers at 200-300 hours is horrible for the industry.
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for the love of god and all things holy what the #### are you talking about
 
This is a good thing, a very good thing. Everyone looks at the pay rates for these different airlines and can only see the bad, but what most of you don't seem to understand is that not so long ago instructors were competing very hard for these jobs that you look down at. This is a huge change from what it use to be. Airlines are becoming much more competitive trying to get better quality pilots and now is the time to change some of those QOL and pay issues. Most of you are in for a real shocker if you think its a bad thing that companies are competing for you and offering you a better chance to get a job. I promise you that something like this won't happen again in your career.
 
jon222 said:
This is a good thing, a very good thing. Everyone looks at the pay rates for these different airlines and can only see the bad, but what most of you don't seem to understand is that not so long ago instructors were competing very hard for these jobs that you look down at. This is a huge change from what it use to be. Airlines are becoming much more competitive trying to get better quality pilots and now is the time to change some of those QOL and pay issues. Most of you are in for a real shocker if you think its a bad thing that companies are competing for you and offering you a better chance to get a job. I promise you that something like this won't happen again in your career.
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I completely agree. Lowering of hiring minimums is a good thing, especially for students at institutions like UND, ERAU, Purdue, ATP, etc... Those who graduate from schools that provide advanced training are (with exceptions) generally ready for a 121 operation. Yes, you are starting at the bottom, but the middle and the top enable a standard of living that is above average. Because of this, don't think of it from a standpoint of being underpaid for the amount of education you have recieved. If the bottom is flying for a regional airline, then the middle and top is flying for a major airline. You can't get to a major without a degree and operational experience, and regional flying (as low paying as it is) is what enables you to get that valuable experience.

You don't think this is fair? It may not be. But it has always been this way. Think of your time at a regional airline in terms of how a medical student must complete a residency before their training is complete. They are paid relatively low wages, but if they are successful, top level wages will be available to them as their careers progress.

Regional Airlines are important to pilots who wish to end up at a major. Major airlines place a lot of importance on 121 time when looking at applicants (of course that is not to say that other experience is overlooked). For those who do not wish to go to a major, maybe regional flying is not for you. Then again, some people like it. The big picture is that when regional airlines hire at lower times, that means that those pilots have the opportunity to make it to a major in a shorter amount of time. Much shorter than going other routes, such as corporate, military, flight instruction, or charter. Personally, I am glad to be at a regional. I know that because of the position I am in now, I am maximizing my opportunity to have a 30+ year career at a major airline. Instead of complaining to a bunch of strangers about the things I cannot change immediately (pay, schedule, time off, hoping to avoid the "you're junior available" call), I am going to enjoy my time here and learn as much as I can so I will be ready for the next step when it comes (that does not mean I won't support my union to get better working conditions).

One last thing about low time pilots: low time does not mean incompetent. There are 250 hr pilots I know who I would trust with my life, and 1300 hr pilots who I wouldn't trust as far as the end of the ramp. Airlines know that each applicant is different, and I believe that if a pilot with 200 hrs can get hired, pass ground, sim, and IOE, then he or she deserves to sit and the right seat (where they will continue to learn until they get the remaining 1300 hours required for their ATP). Also, I really think that graduates from UND, ERAU, Purdue, and other such schools come away with different levels of experience. I am not talking about the "check the box" kind of experience. I believe that a student can have an experience and not really learn from it. The opposite is true too. That is why it is so important to take your time as a student, go places you havn't been before, and try to get as many new experiences as you can. In my opinion, the amount of flight time that separates a pilot who is almost ready to go fly commercial, as opposed to one that is ready is not very much.
 
"and I believe that if a pilot with 200 hrs can get hired, pass ground, sim, and IOE, then he or she deserves to sit and the right seat"

I disagree. The right seat of a pax airliner is no place for a 200 hour pilot, pass training or not. I see it as just too important of a job to allow someone with so little seasoning and background to do. A pax jet F/O should be bringing much more to the table than a 200 hour pilot (outside military training) could bring.
 
DE727UPS said:
"and I believe that if a pilot with 200 hrs can get hired, pass ground, sim, and IOE, then he or she deserves to sit and the right seat"

I disagree. The right seat of a pax airliner is no place for a 200 hour pilot, pass training or not. I see it as just too important of a job to allow someone with so little seasoning and background to do. A pax jet F/O should be bringing much more to the table than a 200 hour pilot (outside military training) could bring.
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I know someone that went to air wisconsin and he told me that he felt quite worthless during his IOE. He even said that he felt the probability of a successful outcome during an emergency was less because of his current level of experiance.

Hell, I'm only a few hours away from crossing the 300 hour mark. No way am I ready to fly right seat at an airline. Because of the way our training course outlines are setup, it's hard to go out and get those experiences. Unless you're lucky and you have high crosswinds on a landings lesson, or good solid IFR on a instrument lesson, or "fun" weather to deal with(if your instructor doesn't chicken out) on a cross country, ect.... That's about the only way to get those experiances part 141 without falling way behind waiting for good days, is to have the good days happen on they day you fly that lesson.
 
TXaviator said:
for the love of god and all things holy what the #### are you talking about
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Let me rephrase this much more clearly.

A lot of people at UND seem to not understand that demand for pilots is up because the QOL associated with the life is down. Less people are willing to put in the initial investment for a career that wont compensate you for years down the line.

Its like the expenses of a doctor but with out the compensation to match the extensive training.

The point is lower minimums is nothing to get excited about.

Wake me up when they raise pay.
 
Mach.14 said:
I completely agree. Lowering of hiring minimums is a good thing, especially for students at institutions like UND, ERAU, Purdue, ATP, etc... Those who graduate from schools that provide advanced training are (with exceptions) generally ready for a 121 operation. Yes, you are starting at the bottom, but the middle and the top enable a standard of living that is above average. Because of this, don't think of it from a standpoint of being underpaid for the amount of education you have recieved. If the bottom is flying for a regional airline, then the middle and top is flying for a major airline. You can't get to a major without a degree and operational experience, and regional flying (as low paying as it is) is what enables you to get that valuable experience.

You don't think this is fair? It may not be. But it has always been this way. Think of your time at a regional airline in terms of how a medical student must complete a residency before their training is complete. They are paid relatively low wages, but if they are successful, top level wages will be available to them as their careers progress.

Regional Airlines are important to pilots who wish to end up at a major. Major airlines place a lot of importance on 121 time when looking at applicants (of course that is not to say that other experience is overlooked). For those who do not wish to go to a major, maybe regional flying is not for you. Then again, some people like it. The big picture is that when regional airlines hire at lower times, that means that those pilots have the opportunity to make it to a major in a shorter amount of time. Much shorter than going other routes, such as corporate, military, flight instruction, or charter. Personally, I am glad to be at a regional. I know that because of the position I am in now, I am maximizing my opportunity to have a 30+ year career at a major airline. Instead of complaining to a bunch of strangers about the things I cannot change immediately (pay, schedule, time off, hoping to avoid the "you're junior available" call), I am going to enjoy my time here and learn as much as I can so I will be ready for the next step when it comes (that does not mean I won't support my union to get better working conditions).

One last thing about low time pilots: low time does not mean incompetent. There are 250 hr pilots I know who I would trust with my life, and 1300 hr pilots who I wouldn't trust as far as the end of the ramp. Airlines know that each applicant is different, and I believe that if a pilot with 200 hrs can get hired, pass ground, sim, and IOE, then he or she deserves to sit and the right seat (where they will continue to learn until they get the remaining 1300 hours required for their ATP). Also, I really think that graduates from UND, ERAU, Purdue, and other such schools come away with different levels of experience. I am not talking about the "check the box" kind of experience. I believe that a student can have an experience and not really learn from it. The opposite is true too. That is why it is so important to take your time as a student, go places you havn't been before, and try to get as many new experiences as you can. In my opinion, the amount of flight time that separates a pilot who is almost ready to go fly commercial, as opposed to one that is ready is not very much.
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Simulators do not replace the value of experience. Many instructors on this website feel much more experienced after giving a couple hundred hours dual.

It is becoming so easy to get onto a regional that if someone really wanted to go from zero to the right seat of a crj it could be accomplished in a year or two.

Scary.
 
DE727UPS said:
"and I believe that if a pilot with 200 hrs can get hired, pass ground, sim, and IOE, then he or she deserves to sit and the right seat"

I disagree. The right seat of a pax airliner is no place for a 200 hour pilot, pass training or not. I see it as just too important of a job to allow someone with so little seasoning and background to do. A pax jet F/O should be bringing much more to the table than a 200 hour pilot (outside military training) could bring.
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:yeahthat:

I think many 200 hr pilots could pass ground, sim, and IOE. But good god, they do NOT belong in a fast and complex aircraft carrying a lot of passengers!
 
ZUKO said:
Simulators do not replace the value of experience. Many instructors on this website feel much more experienced after giving a couple hundred hours dual.

It is becoming so easy to get onto a regional that if someone really wanted to go from zero to the right seat of a crj it could be accomplished in a year or two.

Scary.
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If you think that is scary, look at ATP (the flight school). You can go from nothing to Commercial Instrument Multi in under a year. In my hiring class at the airline I work for, there is a guy who recieved his private less than a year ago. I'll admit, its a little scary to think about. But my point is that just because he hasn't had his license for as long as others, it doesn't mean that he doesn't have the experience necessary to act as SIC in an RJ. Look at the training curriculum for ATP. They may graduate with 250 hrs, but they do so with 200 hours of multi time! And most of it is also cross country time. Try and tell an ATP grad that your steep turns in a practice area gave you more experience than his time flying from NY to CT.

Anyway, everyone is different. Being ready mentally for 121 flying is just as important as having the appropriate skill level. Training will ensure that you have the required skills. The rest is up to the individual, and thats why one person with 200 hours might be ready when another is not.

ZUKO said:
Wake me up when they raise pay.
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You didn't get what mach.14 said earlier. Your pay will raise considerably when you gain operational experience. All pay structures in the commercial aviation world (121 and 135) are based off of operational experience (in the form of seniority). Simply put, the longer you have been flying (for that company), the more experience you have, and the more you will be paid. Wake you up when it changes?? You might as well find another career right now. If you don't want to live a couple years with income less than 35K in order to gain the opportunity to earn over 100K for more than half your career, 121 flying is not for you.
 
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