PNF logging actual?

While instrument time is a "condition of flight", it is a condition of flight that requires a certain level of proficiency....like night landings/day landings, etc. So, one would think, that the person working on such proficiency would log the time. However, to maintain instrument currency, one no longer has to log a certain number of "hours" within the six month window. So, regulatory wise...instrument time for "legal" proficiency is now just required to meet the experience requirements for a certificate.

If you are applying for a new certificate, I certainly believe the intent is for the PF to only log the time. Other than that, or meeting insurance requirements...I can't see any reason to log instrument conditions of flight for regulatory reasons. Can anyone else think of any? I suppose for a job interview, but not regulatory. I don't know as if I've ever seen this defined on an application specifically how they want the time logged.

This thread is the first I've ever come across having a PNF log instrument time. If the FAA has issued a written clarification on the matter...I'd like to see it. Otherwise, I'll keep logging instrument time when I'm PF and in the clouds.
 
...and there's a former part-121 check airman there folks so I surrender the stage to him! :)
 
Doug Taylor said:
...and there's a former part-121 check airman there folks so I surrender the stage to him! :)
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I don't know Doug...with kids, wife, hobbies, my basketball league, a golf addiction and community involvement....I feel like that Toby Keith song, "I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was".

I've got three years of flying time in little red books to be transferred into my master logbook that hasn't been opened in the same time frame.
 
Alchemy said:
You never know when some interviewer might poo-poo you for logging that actual instrument when it wasn't your leg.
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Ding ding ding......we have a winner!

Stone Cold said:
So, for those arguing for logging it, how many of y'all have been at an airline for more than 2 years?

Those arguing against it, how many decades of experience do y'all have?

Get the point there???

Seriously, some of y'all need to get out of the nickel and diming your logbook for every .1 of every type of flying you can get. You're not building time anymore, remember....you're a professional crew member!!
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Hmmm....where did I hear that before (in this very thread)?

Ralgha said:
As far as en employer questioning it, that's fine. They can accept or reject time as they see appropriate. The regs allow you to log PIC while acting as a safety pilot. Some airlines don't accept this time. Same goes for dual received/PIC. They simply don't include it in the totals. Does that mean you shouldn't log it?
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So if:
employers don't count it...
you don't need it while seeking an advanced rating/certificate...
and It does nothing for you....
Why log it?

It will not make you look good in an interview and it CAN make you look bad.
 
NJA_Capt said:
Why log it?

It will not make you look good in an interview and it CAN make you look bad.
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Well... I believe it will only make you look bad if you have someone, like yourself or B767Driver, who is extremely opinionated about their interpretation of a reg sitting across the table from you...

That's just the breaks... interviewers are human. I've seen guys not get hired at my airline because the interviewer didn't like "instructor 'Dual Given' time"... or they didn't like the flight school they attended... or they didn't think that their twin time was recent enough...

That's a fact I've learned around here... there are folks out there that dislike me without ever having met me because of where I went to flight school, or because I instructed instead of built time via Part 135, or that my twin time was in a less complex twin, or that I'm proud of my 35 hours of Safety Pilot time, or that I fly a jet and not a TP, or that I log time according to a logical interpretation of the regs... etc...

So... if I had someone in an interview asking me about it... the best I could and would do is answer very similar to Chinook Driver:

ChinookDriver said:
Its not tweaking the reg, it is the reg.

If you were sitting on the opposite side of the interview table and asked me about PNF in actual, I'd quote the reg, I'd define condition of flight, and give you my opinion on it. I'd do all this in a respectful manner...
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Bob
 
The main reasons I stopped logging it on Monitoring legs were that ATP test question and a FAQ written by John Lynch, the guy responsible for writing most of part 61 in which he states that only one pilot at a time should log actual.

QUESTION: Regarding §61.51's definition of "operating an aircraft" an aircraft certified for two pilots is being operated under part 121. The PIC is "flying" the aircraft. The SIC is the non-flying pilot. Can the SIC log actual instrument flight time for those periods of actual IMC conditions when the PIC is flying the aircraft? Is the SIC considered to be "operating" the aircraft at this moment to justify logging this instrument time.


ANSWER: Emphasis added “operates the aircraft”. In your scenario, you stated the SIC was the non-flying pilot. So, the SIC crewmember was not operating the aircraft. And even though you didn’t ask, the logged time has limited value. It cannot be used for the recency of experience under §61.57(c) because “ . . . operates the aircraft . . .” (otherwise meaning hands-on, flying pilot, etc.) is required. Nor can this SIC time be used for meeting the ATP instrument aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159(a)(3) [i.e., “75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject]


QUESTION: I recently upgraded to captain and have a question regarding the logging of flight time. My question is: As the PIC, when I’m not the flying pilot, should I be logging night and/or instrument flight time? Obviously the approaches can't be logged, but I'm wondering if the actual instrument time can be logged. Same goes for the night time.

ANSWER: Ref. §61.51(e)(2) and §61.57; If you’re a holder of an ATP certificate, and provided you’re “. . . acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate” then yes you may log actual instrument time and night time while acting as pilot-in-command. But don’t read into that answer, that you can count the time toward meeting the recent flight experience of §61.57. Because you can’t. Those requirements are “hands-on-the-controls” requirements.
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Bob

I agree with you in principal and I completely understand where you are coming from. However I look at my logbook as a physical representation of my skills as a pilot, meaning that since it is almost impossible to gauge someone on an interview, my logbook(s) show what I have done. All my instrument time is me flying the airplane, and usually just when I was handflying (my own preference).

I see nothing wrong with logging what you are legally allowed to, but I also understand how interviewers can look at it with a questioning eye, it is all about balance.
 
The above post from Alchemy/John Lynch is also an opinion/interpretation.

My followup question would obviously have to be:

So... as an SIC I'm not "operating" the aircraft when:

- I operate the gear?
- I operate the flaps?
- I operate the Pacs?
- I operate the FMS?
- I operate the flight director before th PF goes on to AP?
- I set the thrust and climb mode?
- I operate the radios?
- I set up the approach?
- I set up the missed?
- I operate the WX Radar?
- I monitor Icing?
- I take the controls when the PF is briefing the approach?

Just what am I doing then? I am the NFP (Non FLYING Pilot)... not the NOP (Non OPERATING Pilot)... ;)

Dugie...

I hear ya... but based on your statement... that would mean you didn't log actual as an Instructor with a student who isn't rated...

But you are right... it's all about balance.

Bob

Edit: Alright... I've officially went to the FAA website and posed the question. I'll post the answer when I get it. I'm open to whatever they say.
 
Captain_Bob said:
The above post from Alchemy/John Lynch is also an opinion/interpretation.

My followup question would obviously have to be:

So... as an SIC I'm not "operating" the aircraft when:

- I operate the gear?
- I operate the flaps?
- I operate the Pacs?
- I operate the FMS?
- I operate the flight director before th PF goes on to AP?
- I set the thrust and climb mode?
- I operate the radios?
- I set up the approach?
- I set up the missed?
- I operate the WX Radar?
- I monitor Icing?
- I take the controls when the PF is briefing the approach?

Just what am I doing then? I am the NFP (Non FLYING Pilot)... not the NOP (Non OPERATING Pilot)... ;)

Dugie...

I hear ya... but based on your statement... that would mean you didn't log actual as an Instructor with a student is isn't rated...

But you are right... it's all about balance.

Bob

Edit: Alright... I've officially went to the FAA website and posed the question. I'll post the answer when I get it. I'm open to whatever they say.
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Bob

I didn't, unless I was the one flying (demonstrating and such), simply because I didn't need to.

I'm not creative, my logbook isn't anything fancy like a "male" scrapbook, no funny notes, drawings in the remarks, etc (not that any of that is a bad thing) it simply an extension of me as a pilot. Those numbers represent everything I have done, that is all, nothing more, nothing less.
 
Dugie8 said:
Bob

I didn't, unless I was the one flying (demonstrating and such), simply because I didn't need to.
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Dugie... actually you did need to log the actual in order for your student to have logged it. Time and conditions logged for an instrument student should mirror the instructor logbook.

Dugie8 said:
I'm not creative, my logbook isn't anything fancy like a "male" scrapbook, no funny notes, drawings in the remarks, etc (not that any of that is a bad thing) it simply an extension of me as a pilot. Those numbers represent everything I have done, that is all, nothing more, nothing less.
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My book is exactly the same... about the only funky thing I've done is highlight my first solo and the day I took my wife up for the first time. :)

Bob
 
Captain_Bob said:
The above post from Alchemy/John Lynch is also an opinion/interpretation.

My followup question would obviously have to be:

So... as an SIC I'm not "operating" the aircraft when:

- I operate the gear?
- I operate the flaps?
- I operate the Pacs?
- I operate the FMS?
- I operate the flight director before th PF goes on to AP?
- I set the thrust and climb mode?
- I operate the radios?
- I set up the approach?
- I set up the missed?
- I operate the WX Radar?
- I monitor Icing?
- I take the controls when the PF is briefing the approach?

Just what am I doing then? I am the NFP (Non FLYING Pilot)... not the NOP (Non OPERATING Pilot)... ;)

Dugie...

I hear ya... but based on your statement... that would mean you didn't log actual as an Instructor with a student who isn't rated...

But you are right... it's all about balance.

Bob

Edit: Alright... I've officially went to the FAA website and posed the question. I'll post the answer when I get it. I'm open to whatever they say.
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Capt Bob,

I think you should go ahead and log the time and use your explanations during an interview. We probably won't have to worry about flying with you at the next level.
 
B767Driver said:
Capt Bob,

I think you should go ahead and log the time and use your explanations during an interview. We probably won't have to worry about flying with you at the next level.
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Wow dude, that seemed unnecessarily harsh... He's posing a fairly valid question, no need to belittle...
 
B767Driver said:
Capt Bob,

I think you should go ahead and log the time and use your explanations during an interview. We probably won't have to worry about flying with you at the next level.
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Ouch.

Everything I've seen of Capt Bob tells me he's a good guy.

That was harsh.

How quickly we forget The Rules.
 
B767Driver said:
Capt Bob,

I think you should go ahead and log the time and use your explanations during an interview. We probably won't have to worry about flying with you at the next level.
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That's harsh... I personally wouldn't wish that on anybody. But... like I said... people who don't know you can dislike you for very petty things.

Listen... all I've done is create a logical explanation for logging the way I do in the spirit of the question that started this thread.

Obviously there is some question as to how it "should be" versus how everyone actually does it... based on interpretations...

I'm wide open to what the FAA says in a few days... and as a result I could very well be adjusting my log book... but for you to not be open enough to consider the other side... well... that scares me. Makes me wonder if you would take input from an FO when you just "know" your right... without listening to any valid discussion points.

Now I know you most likely aren't that way Sir... but after seeing you make a statement like "We probably won't have to worry about flying with you at the next level"... it just made me wonder.

Bob
 
B767Driver said:
He wasn't at all sarcastic towards me in the sister thread?

It wasn't a wish....I've got to quit getting involved in this junk.
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I wouldn't know what the "sister" thread is, so I apologize for being unable to see your side of the story (no sarcasm)

Regardless, Bob could be silenced with a flat out source that proves him wrong, no need for some putdown
 
Chris_Ford said:
I wouldn't know what the "sister" thread is, so I apologize for being unable to see your side of the story (no sarcasm)

Regardless, Bob could be silenced with a flat out source that proves him wrong, no need for some putdown
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Who are you??? You on anti-depressants? I hear that they alter ones persona!
 
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