question for CFI's

S

SharkFisher

Well-Known Member
I called my local FBO this morning to schedule an introductory flight lesson because I am planning on starting my flight training in May. They said that I need a photo ID and proof of citizenship prior to this discovery flight. I am not a citizen, but I am a permanent resident. Therefore, I do not have proof of citizenship. In the website (that you may be familar with) www.flightschoolcandidates.gov it states under FAQ's:

"Who must participate in the Alien Flight Student Program (AFSP)?
Persons seeking flight training must submit a request if:

They are not citizens or nationals of the United States; and
They wish to receive flight training for any aircraft that will lead to an FAA certification or type rating, regardless of whether training occurs in the U.S. or abroad."

Ok, I understand that prior to beggining my training I will need to go through TSA. But according to www.aopa.org/tsa_rule I quote:
Are introductory or "discovery" flights exempt from the requirements of the TSA rule?
Yes. TSA has stated through correspondence with AOPA that introductory or "discovery" flights are exempt from the requirements of the TSA rule.

This is my problem. Can FBO's make their own policies? I wonder since I am not a citizen they might deny my request for flight training, just solely based on their policy. Any thoughts?
 
To my knowledge, you are 100% correct. Intro flights should be exempt.

But, because you know you have to do the whole TSA thing eventually anyway, I don't see how this hampers you much.

I would talk it over with the Chief Pilot. Perhaps the person you spoke with on the phone was not familiar with the TSA rules.
 
SharkFisher said:
Can FBO's make their own policies?
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Of course they can. In this case, however, it's probably due to ignorance than an intentional policy. They are probably unaware that discovery flights are exempt. Our flight school was collecting birth certificates from *all renters*, even though it wasn't required. I view it as a poor idea to annoy your customers for no good reason.
 
tgrayson said:
Of course they can. In this case, however, it's probably due to ignorance than an intentional policy. They are probably unaware that discovery flights are exempt. Our flight school was collecting birth certificates from *all renters*, even though it wasn't required. I view it as a poor idea to annoy your customers for no good reason.
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Exactly.

And the only reason I as a CFI know the TSA rules is because a guy like the original poster came in one day wanting flight training. After a bit of research I schooled myself up on the procedures.
 
ChinookDriver said:
And the only reason I as a CFI know the TSA rules is because a guy like the original poster came in one day wanting flight training. After a bit of research I schooled myself up on the procedures.
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I had to research it too. AOPA had nothing posted on the subject, so I spoke with them and TSA directly. I thought it would be terribly for flight training if even the first flight required proof of citizenship.
 
tgrayson said:
I had to research it too. AOPA had nothing posted on the subject, so I spoke with them and TSA directly. I thought it would be terribly for flight training if even the first flight required proof of citizenship.
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Try instructing in NY... background checks for all trainees no matter what citizenship they are, and no method in place to accomplish, track, or supervise it. The onus is solely on the CFI.
 
tgrayson said:
I thought AOPA was trying to put a stop to that?
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They sure are... haven't heard if it has been successful yet. I haven't had a new student since the law was passed, and existing students are exempt, so I am not delving into the issue... yet. (Sigh.)
 
This is an extremely small FBO. They have merely 2 planes and probably 2 instructors. They said I won't be able to talk to an instructor till Saturday. The person who answered my questions was a helpdesk lady and no she was not aware of the TSA rules. I insisted that I need to talk to a CFI, so I am going to do that on Saturday, if things goes well I can go on an intro flight.
 
SharkFisher said:
I called my local FBO this morning to schedule an introductory flight lesson because I am planning on starting my flight training in May. They said that I need a photo ID and proof of citizenship prior to this discovery flight. I am not a citizen, but I am a permanent resident. Therefore, I do not have proof of citizenship. In the website (that you may be familar with) www.flightschoolcandidates.gov it states under FAQ's:

"Who must participate in the Alien Flight Student Program (AFSP)?
Persons seeking flight training must submit a request if:

They are not citizens or nationals of the United States; and
They wish to receive flight training for any aircraft that will lead to an FAA certification or type rating, regardless of whether training occurs in the U.S. or abroad."

Ok, I understand that prior to beggining my training I will need to go through TSA. But according to www.aopa.org/tsa_rule I quote:
Are introductory or "discovery" flights exempt from the requirements of the TSA rule?
Yes. TSA has stated through correspondence with AOPA that introductory or "discovery" flights are exempt from the requirements of the TSA rule.

This is my problem. Can FBO's make their own policies? I wonder since I am not a citizen they might deny my request for flight training, just solely based on their policy. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

If you plan on becomming a pilot and you're not a United States Citizen, you're going to have to give the government proof sooner or later. Just do it now, so when you do start your training it doesn't slow you down.

It's now a just a fact of life.
 
The reason for intro- flights is to make sure you want to fly before you go take out a loan and fill out tons of paperwork for the TSA. I think if those guys don't let you fly, go to another FBO for your intro flight and your training!
 
SmitteyB said:
If you plan on becomming a pilot and you're not a United States Citizen, you're going to have to give the government proof sooner or later. Just do it now, so when you do start your training it doesn't slow you down.

It's now a just a fact of life.
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Economics wise this is very poor advice. TSA extracts a $150 fee from the prospective student before s/he may begin fight instruction with a new (different) training provider (flight school or independent CFI). IOW, if the prospective student registers with TSA in advance of the discovery flight only to discover during the discovery flight that the flight school/CFI is a dog, then the prospective student will be required to pay another $150 fee to TSA to register with the next training provider.

Take the discovery fight, pick your flight school and CFI, AND THEN pay the TSA their $150 fee.
 
tgrayson said:
Of course they can. In this case, however, it's probably due to ignorance than an intentional policy. They are probably unaware that discovery flights are exempt. Our flight school was collecting birth certificates from *all renters*, even though it wasn't required. I view it as a poor idea to annoy your customers for no good reason.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
I have got to ask you though, did anybody refuse to give you his birth certificate. I would sooner give my flight school the keys to my house than my birth certificate. That just seems to be asking to have one's identity stolen. I hope your flight school keeps that information secure.
 
Old Pete said:
I have got to ask you though, did anybody refuse to give you his birth certificate. I would sooner give my flight school the keys to my house than my birth certificate. That just seems to be asking to have one's identity stolen. I hope your flight school keeps that information secure.
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The school either needs a copy or an endorsement from a flight instructor saying that we saw it. Are the records secure? Heck no. Any employee (and probably a lot of customers) could walk behind the counter and grab a file.
 
Show it to the CFI, if the school requires a copy for their records visibly watch them make one copy or do it yourself and then write in big letters 'COPY - INVALID' or something similar. They'll still be able to read it but it would prove inconvienant to convert it to a copy with which they could open any accounts.

Of course, they still have your full name, DoB, where you were born and your mom and dad's names ;P
 
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