Transfer into Business Jet Direct?

To follow up:

1. OK, you put in time in the simulator. How is that logged? In other words, if you're not going to be building actual time at the center, what kind of time are you building? Is SIC time in a level D simulator included in your TT?

2. Does it make sense to build actual in-air time before you go to the center? Or during your time in the center -- i.e., can you CFI on the side for an FBO while at the center?

3. My concern is that you will graduate without enough TT even to get hired by a regional, much less a corp or frax (Net Jets, eg, wants 2500TT). So the program may get you great experience in the sim and face time, and the corp guys may think you're competent, but without the minimums what are you to do?

4. Each center has sims for only a few types of planes. Does this limit your opportunities with employers? For instance, if you train on a Hawker sim, are you less likely to get a job with a frax that flies only Lears?

Great thread, guys. Thanks for the assist.

It's simulator time, not TT.

I recommend if you attend FSA, you finish your CFI contract of 800 hours, then attend the center. Your experience will be better suited for a job offer. It may not be minimums for netjets, or some big corporate gig, but maybe a charter gig with an FBO. Something to get you started building TT.

Yes, definately CFI on the side, why not? Great way to keep your skills sharp, and keep building your TT.

Generally when you're in a center, the contacts you make are flying that type of aircraft. So your job opportunities with them are increased. It just makes sense that if you're SIC qualified for a certain type, you have better chance of getting a job with a business that flies that type.
 
To follow up:

1. OK, you put in time in the simulator. How is that logged? In other words, if you're not going to be building actual time at the center, what kind of time are you building? Is SIC time in a level D simulator included in your TT?

2. Does it make sense to build actual in-air time before you go to the center? Or during your time in the center -- i.e., can you CFI on the side for an FBO while at the center?

3. My concern is that you will graduate without enough TT even to get hired by a regional, much less a corp or frax (Net Jets, eg, wants 2500TT). So the program may get you great experience in the sim and face time, and the corp guys may think you're competent, but without the minimums what are you to do?

4. Each center has sims for only a few types of planes. Does this limit your opportunities with employers? For instance, if you train on a Hawker sim, are you less likely to get a job with a frax that flies only Lears?

Great thread, guys. Thanks for the assist.


Just remember, this is solely an "opening your horizons" type of opportunity. It's an internship with a fancy name....what you take away from it is experience. Nothing will be guaranteed, and you will not come away with any type of flight time (except for sim time). I don't know if Snow is still lurking around here, but he had a pretty good experience with the internship.........search for his posts.

The big advantage of this program is that you get to see a non-airline side of aviation, and you get to network a lot more than you would otherwise.

I would say do your CFI, and instruct for a while.......then do the internship. It'll be the best way to keep all your options open. .... and No, it doesn't matter what sim you've been flying. If someone see's that you're a competent pilot in a hawker, they'll assume that you'll have the same competency in a lear. The biggest thing most corporate operators are looking for is attitude and personality. They don't want an excellent pilot with a bad attitude talking with their passengers.............and don't worry about the mins for netjets, etc. etc....you'll get there eventually, if that's your goal....
 
The big benefit of this program is that you can gain knowledge and experience in larger/different types of aircraft. Also, if they need a person to sit in the sim as a non-flying pilot, they call you

1.
I think I should start by saying that I have not done the FSA BizJet Direct program. Also I think it should be explained that the non-flying pilot is by no means sitting on his hands. The PNF in my opinion is as busy or more than the PF in the sim. The PNF will be reading checklists, setting up FMSs, tuning radios, setting up for approach and missed, talking to 'ATC' and trying to help keep the PF outta trouble. At SimuFlite which is just like FlightSafety, I have trained with and without other crewmembers from my company so at times a fill in (which would be the intern) was needed.

The people I have met that have 'filled in' were sharp as a tack! I kept in touch with one of the guys I met because his level of performance and dedication impressed me a lot. Some months later a friend asked if I knew anyone for some GIV work, I put the seat filler in touch with the employer, and I was able to vouch for his worth. That may have turned into a full time slot, honestly I've lost track. But my point is that that’s exactly what the program is designed for.

By the way it is nice to see a paid position program with some dignity and professionalism without stepping on the backs of hard workers before you. Cough GIA cough cough. I suppose I’m bias but I have always seen FSA/FSI to be 100% class.

Its something to really consider, for all for of the hour counters out there its logable multi turbine, though it is sim time. For those thinking that it will lead you to a regional faster, I suspect that in time you will change your tune once you get a look at how well (generally) your treated along with how satisfying corporate aviation can be.

2.
For Kid Rock who said something about this being a scam… get a clue.
 
Then you get a 'SIC Signoff' I don't know what FAR it is from. I think it is a 61.50 something (.57 comes to mind, not sure). If you are curious, look it up. You need this signoff to act as a SIC in a 2 pilot airplane. The SIC Type is a different animal and is rather new.

Not true, the SIC type is ONLY needed on international flights outside the USA conducted on N reg aircraft.
 
Not true, the SIC type is ONLY needed on international flights outside the USA conducted on N reg aircraft.

FSIPilot --

Thanks much for the inside scoop. My real concern here is if I get all my ratings, transition to the Biz Jet program, spend some time there and manage to do well, then what? I won't have enough TT for a regional much less a corporate gig.

Here's the question: when NetJets, for instance, sets minimum TT for pilot hires, is that for left-seaters or for all hires--both captains and FOs? In other words, if I have less than 2500 TT can I still get a FO gig with NetJets or another frax or corp?

What I'm driving at is will I need to build time at a regional or charter before I even think about a corp or frax FO job?
 
don't be so focused on net jets, or some big fractional. You will can still land a charter job with much lower minimums than a fractional.
 
FSIPilot --

Thanks much for the inside scoop. My real concern here is if I get all my ratings, transition to the Biz Jet program, spend some time there and manage to do well, then what? I won't have enough TT for a regional much less a corporate gig.

Here's the question: when NetJets, for instance, sets minimum TT for pilot hires, is that for left-seaters or for all hires--both captains and FOs? In other words, if I have less than 2500 TT can I still get a FO gig with NetJets or another frax or corp?

What I'm driving at is will I need to build time at a regional or charter before I even think about a corp or frax FO job?

If it goes the way you plan, get your ratings, biz jet program and do well the natural progression would be to get an in from developing a relationship with someone training that's the whole idea of the program. I’ll tell you this much 90% of the time (unless the HR dept. sticks their nose in it) TT is not what employers discuss the most when it comes time to get the 135/91 job, recommendations and a great attitude is what gets it. Part 135 and 91 jobs are a great place for a guy with a very hard working and positive attitude to catch a break. TT has its place of being important but remember, what's TT without the job connections? I myself value the connections over the TT, TT will come as sure as sitting in a running plane connections on the other hand are much harder to come by in my opinion. All it takes is to catch a break by meeting the right guy, not necessarily having the highest total time. Then hang on, you’ll value a day off as much as you use to value a day of flying.

As far as NetJets their TT requirement is that of every pilot they hire. The clients you are flying in a 135 or corporate atmosphere expect a velvety smooth experience. Keep in mind regionals are about the only place that will take an anonymous 500hour resume and give it a turbine job. Its good for the person that they (I hope this doesn’t come out wrong) ‘work off' a shot to prove themselves and learn how to handle a jet while earning less pay. However major airlines along with larger fractional and corporate flight departments are not in the business of giving you a shot to prove yourself, even though you may be hired in as a FO from their point of view they are hiring a proven future Captain.

For what its worth I’ve heard fine things about NetJets , but give yourself some time and you’ll see the variety of opportunities that are out there.
 
...when NetJets...sets minimum TT for pilot hires, is that for left-seaters or for all hires--both captains and FOs?
It is for EVERYBODY. To get an application sent to you, you must have a minimum of 2500 TT.

In other words, if I have less than 2500 TT can I still get a FO gig with NetJets or another frax or corp?
No.

What I'm driving at is will I need to build time at a regional or charter before I even think about a corp or frax FO job?
Yes, you need to build the 2500. There are no shortcuts.
 
FSIPilot -- Great advice. Thanks again.

NJACapt -- I was scratching my head about FSA's BizJet program. There seems to be a fundamental gap there: it may get you the contacts you need to get inside, but not the experience. How valuable are the contacts if they can't hire you because you've only got 500 hours . . . !

Do you agree with FSIPilot that 135/91 jobs are the natural transition point between the BizJet program and a corporate or fractional department?
 
...it may get you the contacts you need to get inside, but not the experience. How valuable are the contacts if they can't hire you because you've only got 500 hours . . . !
Contacts are always valuable. Some of the employers that hire guys with lower time are not the places you would "prefer" to work at. Keep in mind that some of the places that will hire you with low times will get you violated, or their reputation in the industry will keep you from being hired elsewhere. It can't hurt trying, the worst someone could tell you is, "call us when you get xxxx TT." Just do some legwork before jumping at a job offer. As I said before, insurers want time in the plane, 5,000 of sim time isn't really worth much. The professional sim companies do a great job training, but most of their instructors haven't been on the road in years, and many are teaching planes they have rarely, if ever, flown.

Do you agree with FSIPilot that 135/91 jobs are the natural transition point between the BizJet program and a corporate or fractional department?
I agree.
 
FSIPilot -- Great advice. Thanks again.

NJACapt -- I was scratching my head about FSA's BizJet program. There seems to be a fundamental gap there: it may get you the contacts you need to get inside, but not the experience. How valuable are the contacts if they can't hire you because you've only got 500 hours . . . !

Do you agree with FSIPilot that 135/91 jobs are the natural transition point between the BizJet program and a corporate or fractional department?

Hey man...I don't wanna bag on ya, but it's gonna take a looongg time to get to where you want to go. No passing go, no shortcuts....a bunch of blood and sweat will get you there. You seem to be stuck in the "If I do the program, I better get a job" mentality......a sense of entitlement is definitely not a good thing to start with in this industry. If your goal is corporate and you're offered the chance to do the internship, take it and see what happens.....I guarantee that you'll be able to get an "in" somehow, especially if you keep contact with your connections, regardless of how many hours you have when you "finish the program"......there are many ways to get into the corporate world. FSA's program is one. People used to (and probably still do) take rides in the jets they fueled up as tips. People have made connections when they were 15 and just getting into flying, leading to a citation job when they built up their hours somehow 10 years later......just do what'll make you happy and your jobs will come to you in the end............about 15 years or so ago, people had to have upwards of 4000 tt just to get into the right seat of a jetstream for the regionals....fractionals didn't exist at the time, so it took a lot to get those good corporate jobs........

fly, build you hours somehow, network your butt off, and you'll get to netjets in about 10 years......
 
Not true, the SIC type is ONLY needed on international flights outside the USA conducted on N reg aircraft.
I didn't say you need a SIC type.

This is what I said:
Then you get a 'SIC Signoff' I don't know what FAR it is from. I think it is a 61.50 something (.57 comes to mind, not sure). If you are curious, look it up. You need this signoff to act as a SIC in a 2 pilot airplane. The SIC Type is a different animal and is rather new.
But, you do need a 61.55 to act as a SIC in each specific type of aircraft that requires two pilot crew members (unless you have an ATP and are conducting a ferry, test or evaluation flight without passengers), and this is what FSI gives you.

Incidentially, if you get a 61.55 signoff, you meet all the requirements for a SIC type rating. I thought you may need 3 landings in the actual aircraft, but this does not appear to be the case (you can do them in the sim). Most of the centers should have someone that can issue these, without having to go to the FSDO. All you have to do is fill out an 8710 and have the person who did your training sign it.

You will also have to do whatever 135 checks that are required for someone of your qualifications to work as a crew member in the sim. It is a 'generic' checkride that does not meet any specific operators opspecs, but they are usually pretty similar anyway.

When I was there I had to take 135.293 and 135.297 checks on a regular basis.
 
1. OK, you put in time in the simulator. How is that logged? In other words, if you're not going to be building actual time at the center, what kind of time are you building? Is SIC time in a level D simulator included in your TT?
It is my recommendation that you just log it as 'sim' time in your log book. Even though it is not airplane time, having some sim time can help make those insurance companies feel better.

2. Does it make sense to build actual in-air time before you go to the center? Or during your time in the center -- i.e., can you CFI on the side for an FBO while at the center?
When I was at FSA, there was still a waiting list to instruct there (this is long gone). They also had a hiring freeze at the sim centers, but needed people to help out. Someone came up with the bright idea of the internships at this point.

There were two ways they worked. If you were already an instructor at FSA who had completed your 800 hr contract, they wanted you to leave, so someone else on the waiting list could take your place. You were supposed to go to a sim center for a year and get typed at the end of the year. For the former instructors, they were supposed to work more in the sims than the office. Pay was $7hr until you had completed an initial and started to work with clients (the first few weeks at the center), then $14 after that.

The other way to go was if you were on the waiting list after getting your CFI ratings and successfully completing the interview process. You were supposed to go to a center for 90 days. During this time you were supposed to complete the initial training for at least one airplane. These interns were supposed to rotate through all of the various departments of the center and do more office work. So, this was more of a traditional internship. Pay was I believe $7 hr the entire time.

Each center was different however, as each learning center is sort of a mini fiefdom within FSI's empire. It all depends on the center management (who are usually very professional).

Some centers type those with enough hours right away. This is what happened in my case. Others make you wait a year. Either way, you get what you are promised.

During the time when there was a waiting list, some of the low time interns ended up spending close to a year at the centers until they were called back to instruct, so if you were good, they were in no hurry to see you go. As time went on, they started placing people in centers who were not offered jobs as instructors at FSA, but who still did well during the interview process. If I had to guess they did ok during the personal interviews and sim eval, but not so good on the all important 15 minute presentation. Most of these interns probably spend more time in the sim than the office as well.

For either group, they have no problem with you instructing on the side. I would recommend it.

3. My concern is that you will graduate without enough TT even to get hired by a regional, much less a corp or frax (Net Jets, eg, wants 2500TT). So the program may get you great experience in the sim and face time, and the corp guys may think you're competent, but without the minimums what are you to do?
You have to continue to instruct locally to build time, no way around this. Even if you met Net Jets minimums, they would probably be unlikely to hire someone with 2500 hrs of piston instructor time. You are more likely to end up at a charter company or in a small part 91 flight department. You could also go to a regional once you get 600 hours, or whatever their minimums happen to be at the time. Even if you chose to go to a regional, you will be a lot more comfortable in the sim and be more used to operating a complex airplane.

4. Each center has sims for only a few types of planes. Does this limit your opportunities with employers? For instance, if you train on a Hawker sim, are you less likely to get a job with a frax that flies only Lears?
As others have said, you are unlikely to get hired by any fractional. I would say that you are probably more likely to get hired to fly whatever airplane you are in. One of the things that will appeal to employers is that you are already trained. This saves them money. This is not always 100%, but you will be meeting people in the sim who are operating your type of airplane, so it stands to reason that they are the ones who will hire you. This brings up the topic of what program you want to work in. My advice is to be realistic. If you have 300 hours, no one is going to hire you to fly a GV or a Global, so go for something smaller.

You can also end up doing some contract flying while at a center. I ended up doing about 100 hours before I left. Kind of nice to get out and about now and then.

I personally know of 5 people who worked at the sim centers who got hired. Some were lower time and did some contract work that led to full time employment. One ended up being hired by a smaller corporation to fly a Lear. Another flew close to 100 hours in an older Citation, but ended up going back to the Academy to instruct (I think he ended up going to a regional). Another ended up in a Beechjet owned by a private individual. Two more are flying Beechjets for charter operators.

I didn't leave FSA until I met ATP minimums and spend close to two years at a center. I now fly a Hawker for a private individual and we also do charter.

So, it can be an excellent opportunity. Just don't expect to get 300 hours and go to a center and then get hired by Motorola to fly a GV or something along those lines. You will still need to build at least 1000 hours before you are attractive to most operators. Getting your ATP is even better.
 
launchpad -- i agree but just to make clear i'm not asking for a shortcut or back door here. i'm willing to do what it takes, but i'm too old (43) to go about this haphazardly. i can't afford to take a dead-end detour or waste my time. i need focus if i am to pursue this, and i appreciate all the great advice this forum has to offer. i don't want someone to give me a left seat in a jet; i want to earn it, but as quickly as possible, in the most direct route. i don't expect to get there in three months, but ten years seems a bit pessimistic, eh? five years at a regional will get me to 2500TT.
 
launchpad -- i agree but just to make clear i'm not asking for a shortcut or back door here. i'm willing to do what it takes, but i'm too old (43) to go about this haphazardly. i can't afford to take a dead-end detour or waste my time. i need focus if i am to pursue this, and i appreciate all the great advice this forum has to offer. i don't want someone to give me a left seat in a jet; i want to earn it, but as quickly as possible, in the most direct route. i don't expect to get there in three months, but ten years seems a bit pessimistic, eh? five years at a regional will get me to 2500TT.


No problem man, didn't mean to be so harsh. You do have A LOT of time though...unless you've decided yourself that you want to retire at a certain age.......the fractional and corporate carriers don't have a mandatory retirement age like the airlines (that I know of).

Another thing you might want to think of, that I have also heard about before (and another poster mentioned), is that corporate types are sometimes wary of airline types.......

I would say get your training done first all the way through your instructor licenses. Do the business jet direct thingy....make some connections and instruct on the side. When your time warrants, use those connections to get a corporate job. When you get to the magic times, apply to your fractional of choice and live a happy life.....

As far as the pessimism, set yourself up for a little longer than you'd like, otherwise you'll be in a position to get discouraged quick. Things in this business change daily, and in one hour your entire career plan can be shortened by 10 years or lengthened by 20. Plan conservative, and you'll make your goals. and yes, 5 years at a regional will get you well in excess of 4000 hours. :bandit:
 
hey bro no problem -- you're telling it like it is and i appreciate it. and i completely agree with you that no one should hand a pilot anything; he should earn it. one of the things i like about flying is that it is almost pure darwinism--the fit survive, literally. as opposed to the "real" world of business where the unfit just go on and on . . .

yeah, i heard that too about corp depts not like liking airline types. i heard that it is because airline pilots are used to getting taken care of, whereas corp pilots have to do a lot of the detail work themselves in addition to handling passenders, etc. does that apply to regionals too?
 
<snip>

yeah, i heard that too about corp depts not like liking airline types. i heard that it is because airline pilots are used to getting taken care of, whereas corp pilots have to do a lot of the detail work themselves in addition to handling passenders, etc. does that apply to regionals too?

I wouldn't get too hung up about this. I mentioned it as well in one of my earlier posts, but I think that it usually only comes into play when someone tries to move from regional or major airline directly into one of the top end corporate gigs that require 5000 hours as a minimum to even be considered. Those kinds of positions tend to be *career* positions with very low turnover, and the employers want to be really sure that they are hiring someone with the total package of skills.

The fractionals, charter, and mid-level corporate operators are less likely to be so leery about picking up someone from the regionals. They are usually looking at someone that has only been at the regionals for 2 or 3 years, and are not as locked in to the airline way of doing things (i.e. dispatch does the flight planning, no bags to throw, FA takes care of pax, etc.) and are usually pretty understanding of all of the job requirements and customer service skills needed in the business jet world. It is the higher time pilots that have been flying the airline way for lots of years that sometimes have a problem transitioning to a job where they have to be concerned with the pax directly, handle their own flight planning and weather briefing, and those are the guys that have 10,000 hours and are trying to move over to a sweet GV corporate slot. Those are the kinds of position that I have more often seen some anti-airline sentiment.

A friend of mine is chief pilot for a small corporate department that flies two Citation Xs, and he actually recommended to me that I go to a regional for 2 years to build hours quickly in turbine equipment, then switch back into charter/corporate once I had the time. I did not end up going that direction, but it is not unusual to see people do that route and successfully making the transition. I mentioned it in one of my earlier posts, but I see the pros/cons for going regional to get to corporate as: pro - build hours fast, in turbine equipment; con - much less chance to network and be in the right place when the corporate position becomes available. This is one of those *no right way, no wrong way* choices, and might boil down to personal preferences more than anything.
 
Asta...

Great thread, your getting to all my questions as I keep scrolling down. I may not be posting, but reading it all (as I bet many more are as well).

Thanks.
 
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