Multi PIC time

Blip16

Blip16

Well-Known Member
ok, i have about 25 hours of multi but it is logged as dual recieved, i want to do my MEI add on. does that time count as PIC since i was the one flying. i know i couldn't "Act" as PIC, but i was the one flying so my understanding is that time does count as PIC so i could go and change my logbook and pencil it in?

for some reason this has me confused:insane:
 
BuickCFI said:
ok, i have about 25 hours of multi but it is logged as dual recieved, i want to do my MEI add on. does that time count as PIC since i was the one flying. i know i couldn't "Act" as PIC, but i was the one flying so my understanding is that time does count as PIC so i could go and change my logbook and pencil it in?

for some reason this has me confused:insane:
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I would say no, since you were not rated for the aircraft. Think of it like 323 with the arrow, you could log PIC but could not ACT as PIC since you had no complex endorsement. In your case here, you don't/didn't have a Multi Engine land rating (license, ticket, what ever) at the time.

What you can do when you start training for your MEI is knock off .1 for each flight and log the rest as PIC to get the 5 hours PIC in make and model, and I forget if it is 15 hours PIC or just 15 hours in class (multi engine land).

The reason to knock of the .1 during training is that since it is a training flight and your instructor is most likely acting as PIC, you won't be manipulating the controls the whole time, so knock off a tenth or two for the paperwork.
 
Dugie8 said:
I would say no, since you were not rated for the aircraft. Think of it like 323 with the arrow, you could log PIC but could not ACT as PIC since you had no complex endorsement. In your case here, you don't/didn't have a Multi Engine land rating (license, ticket, what ever) at the time.

What you can do when you start training for your MEI is knock off .1 for each flight and log the rest as PIC to get the 5 hours PIC in make and model, and I forget if it is 15 hours PIC or just 15 hours in class (multi engine land).

The reason to knock of the .1 during training is that since it is a training flight and your instructor is most likely acting as PIC, you won't be manipulating the controls the whole time, so knock off a tenth or two for the paperwork.
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that is also what i was thinking. you can get a solo endorsement to solo a multi-aircraft, and then for sure i would have met the requirements for the PIC, but otherwise i was not sure.

i will get out my regs now and check the 15 hour requirement, that is what the guys in Fargo told me i needed. i already knew you needed 5 hours in each type you want to instruct in
 
61.183(j) says i need 15 hours of PIC for each class of CFI cert (SEL and MEL)

but 61.129(b)(4) 10 hours of PIC or 10 hours of time performing the duties of PIC w/ and authorized instructor. so where does this fit into the picture since i did my training part 141. does this time under part 61 count as PIC?

appendix D to part 141
4. (b) (2) says you need 55 hours of training for a multi-engine course, so how does UND get people thru with less than that? and it mentions nothing about performing the duties of PIC

i think i am screwed and need to pay for 15 hours of Dual and PIC, that sucks
 
You don't have to knock off the .1when you are training for your MEI. Once you have a multi ticket and you are receiving dual, it is the same as any other dual once you are rated. Both the student and the instructor log PIC.
 
dc3flyer said:
You don't have to knock off the .1when you are training for your MEI. Once you have a multi ticket and you are receiving dual, it is the same as any other dual once you are rated. Both the student and the instructor log PIC.
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Well, it may work 99.9% of the time, but how do you explain to an examiner when you go for your ride that all 15 hours of the instruction you got for your MEI your instructor never once for more than 6 minutes had control of the airplane. Since only one person can ACT as PIC, and that is usually the MEI, there is a bit of a corner you could paint yourself into. You could however show in writing that the MEI agreed that you as the student were acting PIC for all the flights I guess. Just simplier to knock off the tenth or two and save the headache, IMO.
 
BuickCFI said:
61.183(j) says i need 15 hours of PIC for each class of CFI cert (SEL and MEL)

but 61.129(b)(4) 10 hours of PIC or 10 hours of time performing the duties of PIC w/ and authorized instructor. so where does this fit into the picture since i did my training part 141. does this time under part 61 count as PIC?

appendix D to part 141
4. (b) (2) says you need 55 hours of training for a multi-engine course, so how does UND get people thru with less than that? and it mentions nothing about performing the duties of PIC

i think i am screwed and need to pay for 15 hours of Dual and PIC, that sucks
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UND gets folks through the multi course because it is part of the commercial course. I would have to dig to find the 141 reg that addresses it, but it will be in there under commercial courses for single, multi and instrument ratings. I think the time for that is 24 or so hours in a twin.

The way I did my MEI at UND was under part 61, so I needed the 5 hours PIC in the baron, did the first few flights in that and got the rest of the PIC time on the checkout. The seminole I did about 16 hours or so total for the 15 hours PIC in twins and that got me the 5 hours in the PA44 as well. I had a 16.6 hours of total twin time (after the time I had following the stage 104) plus another 1.5 in the baron for the stan ride (UND pays for that :nana2: ). So that means I had 3.5 hours of BE58 time and 13.1 of PA44 time going into my MEI ride.
 
Dugie8 said:
Well, it may work 99.9% of the time, but how do you explain to an examiner when you go for your ride that all 15 hours of the instruction you got for your MEI your instructor never once for more than 6 minutes had control of the airplane. Since only one person can ACT as PIC, and that is usually the MEI, there is a bit of a corner you could paint yourself into. You could however show in writing that the MEI agreed that you as the student were acting PIC for all the flights I guess. Just simplier to knock off the tenth or two and save the headache, IMO.
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So when you got your instrument rating (or commercial, CFI, or CFII) did you log the entire flights or did you deducts .1 or .2 because the instructor showed you something. I know I sure as Heck didn't. MEI is no different. You are receiving dual, being instructed, but you are still logging PIC, so is the instructor.
 
dc3flyer said:
So when you got your instrument rating (or commercial, CFI, or CFII) did you log the entire flights or did you deducts .1 or .2 because the instructor showed you something. I know I sure as Heck didn't. MEI is no different. You are receiving dual, being instructed, but you are still logging PIC, so is the instructor.
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UND logs all training flights as dual given only, they refuse to let the students legally log the PIC time
 
dc3flyer said:
So when you got your instrument rating (or commercial, CFI, or CFII) did you log the entire flights or did you deducts .1 or .2 because the instructor showed you something. I know I sure as Heck didn't. MEI is no different. You are receiving dual, being instructed, but you are still logging PIC, so is the instructor.
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61.51.(e) Logging PIC time:
(1)(i)"is the sole manipulator of the controls."

This is the regulation. Most people do disregard this technical point, but that doesn't make it legal.

Most examiners don't make it an issue, but some do. In those geographic areas, the technical word gets around.

PIC time is only when you are sole manipulator. Most instrument flights are like that, but if the instructor is assisting an actual approach, or helping a bit with a crosswind landing, that is not legally PIC time.
 
ChinookDriver said:
That's funny! Certainly the students who own the logbooks fill it in anyway, right?
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i haven't but i probably should, would increase my PIC time from 120 to almost 275, should i?

reasoning is UND says that airlines, etc don't like to see dual flights logged as PIC as well. i think it is just because it messes up their "records" system which only takes 3 weeks to go thru a logbook anyway.....
 
dc3flyer said:
So when you got your instrument rating (or commercial, CFI, or CFII) did you log the entire flights or did you deducts .1 or .2 because the instructor showed you something. I know I sure as Heck didn't. MEI is no different. You are receiving dual, being instructed, but you are still logging PIC, so is the instructor.
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Well, I didn't have to, since I didn't log any of that time as PIC, just Dual Received. The extra 100 hours or so of "PIC" wasn't going to make or break my career and made checking the logbook times easier.
 
BuickCFI said:
i haven't but i probably should, would increase my PIC time from 120 to almost 275, should i?

reasoning is UND says that airlines, etc don't like to see dual flights logged as PIC as well. i think it is just because it messes up their "records" system which only takes 3 weeks to go thru a logbook anyway.....
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I would, because it is MY logbook, and MY hours, and it is legal, and from everything I've read isn't even in one of those "gray" areas.

That being said, I know nothing about the airlines save what I've read on JC, so maybe someone else can better answer that.
 
ChinookDriver said:
I would, because it is MY logbook, and MY hours, and it is legal, and from everything I've read isn't even in one of those "gray" areas.

That being said, I know nothing about the airlines save what I've read on JC, so maybe someone else can better answer that.
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moot point for me as well since i want to be a freightdog or charter pilot
 
Dugie8 said:
Well, it may work 99.9% of the time, but how do you explain to an examiner when you go for your ride that all 15 hours of the instruction you got for your MEI your instructor never once for more than 6 minutes had control of the airplane. Since only one person can ACT as PIC, and that is usually the MEI, there is a bit of a corner you could paint yourself into. You could however show in writing that the MEI agreed that you as the student were acting PIC for all the flights I guess. Just simplier to knock off the tenth or two and save the headache, IMO.
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True, but there is a difference between "acting PIC" and being the "sole manipulator" (as long as rated for the category and class).

To be eligible for the MEI you only have to have 15 hours PIC in the category and class. To instruct in a multi-engine, you have to have 5 hours PIC in that specific make and model. I can get the FARs out if you want references.
 
BuickCFI said:
i will get out my regs now and check the 15 hour requirement, that is what the guys in Fargo told me i needed. i already knew you needed 5 hours in each type you want to instruct in
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The 5 hours PIC make and model requirement is to instruct someone who’s seeking a certificate or rating. You can instruct in twin if you don’t have the 5 hours PIC make and model. I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable instructing in a twin that I don’t have any time in though…

61.195(f)
 
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