night solo

[C310_pilot]

So I am in a debate with my manager. He thinks soloing students at night is dangerous. I feel if properly trained with proper planning it's uneventful. With the days getting shorter sometimes I think its needed.

The student in question was 50TT/5 dual night with 12xc. He was going to do his long solo X-country and would be getting in around 6:30.

What are some of your thoughts? Personally It ticks me off that other people are putting limitations on my students. If these people had flown with the student maybe, but not having done so is BS.

I am an experanced professional with over 700 dual given and all my students have passed their checkrides. I am so starting to get fed up with the political crap at FBOs.

 

[Blip16]

most pilots don't get much experience. myself included, i have less than 10% TT at night, i wish i had more. as a student pilot if they are comfortable and have proven to you they can handle it, then why not? that is the only way to truly get used to night flight is to get out there and do it

 

[meritflyer]

I agree that flying at night presents different challenges than during the day. I personally wouldnt allow one of my PPL students to solo at night. There are too many illusions and disorientation factors that a new pilot are not prepared for. Not to mention accident rates at night support its much more dangerous if not trained properly.

Stick with the day, IMO.

 

[jrh]

The student in question was 50TT/5 dual night with 12xc. He was going to do his long solo X-country and would be getting in around 6:30.

As long as the student is proficient, which it sounds like he is, then I'd go for it. Why not? It's no more dangerous than a private pilot flying at night right after their checkride.

In most cases I avoid signing students off to solo at night simply because there is no reason to and I don't want the added liability. But that doesn't mean I think it's dangerous. If you need to sign them off for a purpose, go for it.

What are some of your thoughts? Personally It ticks me off that other people are putting limitations on my students. If these people had flown with the student maybe, but not having done so is BS.

I am an experanced professional with over 700 dual given and all my students have passed their checkrides. I am so starting to get fed up with the political crap at FBOs.

That's why I became an independent contractor With the instructing gig I have now, I can do pretty much whatever I want, whenever I want. Absolutely nobody is looking over my shoulder. It's great. Especially coming from a college flight program that was good, and fairly relaxed compared to other colleges, but still had its fair share of political BS.

But still, remember why the manager is there. He's just trying to protect the FBO's assets and cover his own butt. Don't take his opinions personally. He's not saying you're a crazy instructor for considering such a thing, he's just saying he doesn't want the liability associated with it.

It's one of the tradeoffs you have to deal with if you want to work in that setting. All the support and protection the FBO gives you comes at a price--somebody has to look over your shoulder to some degree. It's just the way it is.

 

[meritflyer]

As long as the student is proficient, which it sounds like he is, then I'd go for it. Why not? It's no more dangerous than a private pilot flying at night right after their checkride.

In most cases I avoid signing students off to solo at night simply because there is no reason to and I don't want the added liability. But that doesn't mean I think it's dangerous. If you need to sign them off for a purpose, go for it.

I strongly disagree with this notion. A 50 hour pilot is not proficient, especially at night.

I cant believe you think that its no more dangerous than a PPL. A PPL is a licensed (still very inexperienced) pilot, a student is not.

Some statistics to support such information are listed compiled by Gene Whitt -

• 71% of GA accidents are PPLs.
• 52% had less than 500 (not 50) hours.
• 77% were not instrument rated.
• 97% are pilot error.
• 76% are killed.
• 46% are within 5 miles of the airport.

I think you ought to read up on night illusions. If a student pilot does not comprehend and appreciate such illusions and the hazards associated with each, they are much more likely to fall victim to one.

I've seen 1000 hr pilots fall into night illusions.

AVEMCO also published a study of CFIT. More than 50% of all CFIT accidents occur at night with the pilot averaging more than 500 hours.

Again, I say its a bad idea.

 

[Champcar]

No offense but limitations are put on your students because its a check and balance. Instructors can have hazardous attitudes just as students can and I think its good that managers take an active role. I'm not saying you have a hazordous tude', just making a example.

I dont think there is any reason to night solo a student. It takes alot more responsibility and discipline to fly at night than during day. Thats why i think the night solo requirement is on the Comm PTS.

 

[jrh]

I strongly disagree with this notion. A 50 hour pilot is not proficient, especially at night.

I cant believe you think that its no more dangerous than a PPL. A PPL is a licensed (still very inexperienced) pilot, a student is not.

So when is the magical crossover point when a pilot is "good enough" to fly at night?

There is absolutely no change in skill level from a pilot the flight before their checkride to the flight after their checkride. The only difference is a piece of paper.

I'm just speaking from my own experience. I passed my checkride, flew home, and took my dad for a scenic flight at night that evening. I then flew several XCs at night and was very comfortable with night operations. And this was all with less than 60 hours (42 when I passed my checkride and took my dad for a ride at night).

Looking back on my early experiences, I did lots of stupid things. A few of them could have killed me. Flying at night is nowhere on that list of stupid things in my mind.

Some statistics to support such information are listed compiled by Gene Whitt -

• 71% of GA accidents are PPLs.
• 52% had less than 500 (not 50) hours.
• 77% were not instrument rated.
• 97% are pilot error.
• 76% are killed.
• 46% are within 5 miles of the airport.

I think you ought to read up on night illusions. If a student pilot does not comprehend and appreciate such illusions and the hazards associated with each, they are much more likely to fall victim to one.

I've seen 1000 hr pilots fall into night illusions.

AVEMCO also published a study of CFIT. More than 50% of all CFIT accidents occur at night with the pilot averaging more than 500 hours.

So are you saying pilots shouldn't fly at night until they have well over 1000 hours? I just don't see what you're getting at with all these numbers. You could probably make an argument that student pilots shouldn't be allowed to solo at all, using those numbers as evidence.

The bottom line is, night flying can be performed safely with proper training and careful judgement. There is no reason a student pilot is any less capable than a low-time private pilot.

If the idea is so ridiculously dangerous, why does the FAA allow instructors to endorse their students for it?

Again, I say its a bad idea.

That's fine. I respect that. And again, I say it's a fine idea.

 

[Champcar]

So when is the magical crossover point when a pilot is "good enough" to fly at night?

There is absolutely no change in skill level from a pilot the flight before their checkride to the flight after their checkride. The only difference is a piece of paper.

I learned ALOT in the 15 hours after I got that peice of paper, I realized I didn't know as much as I thought about flying or how to fly. Actually I knew nothing.

At 200 hours I just now start to feel a lot of things "click"

 

[flyguy]

So when is the magical crossover point when a pilot is "good enough" to fly at night?

There is absolutely no change in skill level from a pilot the flight before their checkride to the flight after their checkride. The only difference is a piece of paper.

Okay, so would you advise a newly minted PPL to fly solo in class G with 1sm visibility just because he can? There's a difference between legal and safe.

For me there was a magical crossover point where I felt comfortable to fly alone at night, and it was well after I got my private.

Anyway the point I'm trying to make, is that I agree that there's not much difference between a student pilot soloing at night and a newly minted PPL flying at night, but maybe the newly minted PPL should be setting personal minimums that are somewhere around where his/her student limitations were, until s/he has enough experience to figure out what they can handle. For example, maybe you had a 5 knot croswind limitation and you'd never experienced anything above that as a student. After your checkride is it safe to try a 20 knot X-wind just because you can? Probably not, but 6 or 7 might be okay. Then after mastering 6-7 knot crosswinds you might be ready to try 10 knots etc. Take it one step at a time.

That being said, I had little over the minimum required night hours when I took my checkride. If another student had more experience at night than I did, maybe their magical crossover point came before their checkride, and maybe they would be okay to solo at night. I think the student and the instructor will both know when the student is ready to solo during the day, or at night. But make sure you know what your are doing. Its your certificate on the line if something goes wrong.

 

[ananoman]

I never would have endorsed a student to solo at night when I was an instructor. For 2 reasons, one it is not required and two I don't want the liability. Under the right conditions flying at night is no big deal, but it is more hazardous than flying during the day. If it is not required for them to get their ticket, why do it? Let them crash after their checkride.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

I have no problem with it. My second solo flight was a night solo flight. However, about 50% of my dual received at the time was at night.

Doesn't mean that it's appropriate for every student . . .

 

[averyrm]

Be sure insurance says it's ok too.

 

[surreal1221]

One quick question. . .

How much instrument time does the student have?

 

[clumpinglitter]

So I am in a debate with my manager. He thinks soloing students at night is dangerous. I feel if properly trained with proper planning it's uneventful. With the days getting shorter sometimes I think its needed.

One of my students started flight training in fall, and since the days have kept getting shorter and shorter, he's going to have well over the required minimums for night experience. He lands just as well at night as during the day, and he has very good judgment regarding go/no-go decisions, so the special weather considerations for night flying wouldn't even concern me that much. Even so, I'm not going to give him a night endorsement. I don't need the extra liability exposure, and he's been doing fine with soloing on weekends and daylight hours during the week. Just another opinion for you ...

-C.

 

[C310_pilot]

But still, remember why the manager is there. He's just trying to protect the FBO's assets and cover his own butt. QUOTE]

.........while making a dime

This is so close to the truth. Last month I am flying approaches with a student and I here another one of my students in the pattern. Ceilings were 800 and the student was in actual. I landed and was able to talk my guy down. Needless to say I was pretty upset, not with the student, but with the FBO.

The girl who gave him the plane had worked at the FBO for 3+ years and she is a pilot herself. What makes it worse is the FBO manager walked the guy to the plane after checking the weather and told him to stay in the pattern. The poor guy went into actual on climb out with the FBO manager watching. My manager is an idot! Now it has gotten around the airport that I let a student solo in actual. I addressed this with the manager and he said he was joking and was taken out of context. I assured him this was no joking matter. What an....... well you know.

 

[C310_pilot]

I strongly disagree with this notion. A 50 hour pilot is not proficient, especially at night.

Yet its responsable to send a 50hr guy for a checkride and the faa sign him off. Now he is out running around unsupervised. I would much rather him gain experance under supervision then get his license. Longer I have him the more prepaired I can make him for the real world of flying.

 

[dc3flyer]

I had many students that fell into the "many more night hours than needed" category. I really stressed the night flights and in the winter would often finish lessons at night. A lot of my students I felt were good night flyers.

All that being said, I never signed a student off to solo at night. Some of them tried. I just told them to go get their license and then they could do what they wanted. Until then, they take my license up with them when they fly and I just didn't want the risk.

 

[C310_pilot]

I never would have endorsed a student to solo at night when I was an instructor. For 2 reasons, one it is not required and two I don't want the liability. Let them crash after their checkride.

This is the weakest argument I have ever heard not to mention unprofessional. If I sign a student off its because I believe he is safe to learn. The checkairman is there to double check for any holes in a students training. If one of my former students gets hurt 100, 200, 400 hrs down the road I need to evaluate the job I am doing and take responsability. It is our job as CFIs to properly prepair pilots, not to give them the minimum training. I don't train to good enough, I train better than that.

 

[C310_pilot]

I've seen 1000 hr pilots fall into night illusions.

AVEMCO also published a study of CFIT. More than 50% of all CFIT accidents occur at night with the pilot averaging more than 500 hours.

All the more reason to train them while you have them. I have seen more 20yr ppls over the last year than I care to admit. These guys get their bi-annual on the hand shake method. Another thought, how many ppls get night training after they get their ticket. Its sad but these 40-50 hrs is about all the instruction some people will ever get. As reps for our industry, its important to take pride, and ownership in what we do. We are not playing a game here. We have a responsability to our students. If all you are interested in doing is covering your rearend, maybe you should reevaluate what you are doing.

 

[killbilly]

Since proficiency seems to be key here, is it the general consensus that student pilots should maybe learn at night as early as possible and fly at night as much as possible?

The few times I've gone up with an instructor, I actually preferred night flying - it was easier for me to find the airport(s), other traffic, etc. - dunno, just liked it better.