First leg 91 vs. 135

[wheelsup]

Does the "lookback" regulation regarding rest specifically refer to "135 duty", or just "commercial" flying? Does flight instructing count when looking back for your ten hours of rest?

Commercial flying. Hence it takes into account "repo" legs, or it seems to hint at it, IMO. Although, if you can't exceed 8 hours of "commercial" flying, how can you come back part 91 and go over that? I'm confused.

 

[CFIse]

A question for everyone. If you start your day on an empty reposition leg, when does your 135 duty day start?

My advice (for what it's worth) is don't think about "duty day" because while the concept works a lot of the time, it doesn't work all of the time. With one exception the regs. refer to rest. If you're not on rest, then you're on duty.

So - rest is "free from a present requirement for work" - and clearly a repo. flight etc. is not free from a present requirment for work. Neither is cleaning toilets, so if your employer wants you to come in 3 hours early and take a run at the lav., that's not rest either, and in the vernacular your duty day has already started.

Here's another interesting fact - it's only free from a present requirment from work for that operator. While operator A has you on rest you can be happily working for operator B (as far as the FAA is concerned) and that counts as rest for operator A (duty aloft is all commercial flying time so you've got those limits to deal with). So when you augur it in after having not slept for the past 36 hours the FAA will not be able to charge you with violating rest requirements - although I'm fairly certain a "careless and reckless" charge will be coming your way.

 

[wheelsup]

I found this:

Concept 2: Any flight in which you carry customer property (even a single empty container) must be conducted under the provisions of Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations. Any flight in which you carry passengers for hire is also a Part 135 flight. Company materials (“comat”) are not customer property. Carrying Bob's Flying Service employees (such as pilots, mechanics or dispatchers) as passengers does not count as carrying passengers for hire, because they are not paying to fly.

Concept 3: A flight with no customer property and no paying passengers on board may be conducted under Part 91. In that case, Part 135 regulations do not apply to that leg. If a duty assignment is scheduled to include even one Part 135 flight (leg), however, then §135.267 applies to the entire assignment in terms of whether you can accept it or not. In other words, “one drop poisons the whole barrel.” But . . .

Concept 4: If a duty period is not scheduled to include any Part 135 flying, then obviously §135.267 becomes totally irrelevant! That’s right, there are no rules! Under Part 91, there are no restrictions on flight, duty or rest times . . . none whatsoever. The FAA did not write any such regulations. Breaking Part 135 rules when you aren’t operating under Part 135 would be like breaking the laws of Egypt when you’re not in Egypt. Who cares?

Some more:

This means that Bob's Flying Service may not assign you —

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]and you may not accept [/FONT]— any flight assignment which is scheduled to include any Part 135 flying if that assignment (notice the future tense here) would cause you to exceed 8 hours [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]of total compensated flying [/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,BoldItalic]for any and all employers [/FONT]within any period of 24 consecutive hours. (It doesn’t matter where that 24-hour period starts and ends; it’s a “rolling clock.”)
​

So, even though you can part 91 it, it still counts toward your flight time limitations? So what is the advantage of flying part 91 back to base?​

​

 

[CFIse]

Does the "lookback" regulation regarding rest specifically refer to "135 duty", or just "commercial" flying? Does flight instructing count when looking back for your ten hours of rest?

The lookback as far as finding rest refers just to time at your employer when you were free from a present requirement for work at that employer.

Commercial flying only refers to duty aloft, and ALL commercial flying counts when looking at your flight time limitations, regardless of who you did that flying for. Your question implies that "commercial flying" is related to rest - and it is not in the general sense (although the AMOUNT of commercial flying can drive the AMOUNT of rest required).

CFI time is commercial flying and counts for your commercial flying totals. If were CFI'ing for somebody other than the certificate holder then it's rest as far as the certificate holder is concerned.

 

[CFIse]

Commercial flying. Hence it takes into account "repo" legs, or it seems to hint at it, IMO. Although, if you can't exceed 8 hours of "commercial" flying, how can you come back part 91 and go over that? I'm confused.

Because there are no limitations on whether you may accept a Part 91 flight segment. So while you may have flown a whole bunch of hours, when you start a Part 91 segment there is no requirement to go back and count those hours to determine if you are legal.

It *IS* commercial flying on the empty leg home - and so it has to be counted in your commecial flying totals for daily or between rest, and the 7 day, calendar month and calendar year totals.

Ignoring the complexities of not being legal to be scheduled for certain things, assuming your schedule is legal a part 135 flight segment requires you to lookback and find certain things before you can conduct that flight. A Part 91 flight segment does not require you to lookback and find anything (except your socks) although it can taint any future flying.

You're confused - you have a right to be. These regulations are horrible and understanding and interpreting them is difficult - but as a commercial pilot you have to understand them, because "the company may not assign and YOU may not accept" an illegal schedule - so even if the company is wrong, it'll still be your fault if it's an illegal flight. That's why, in fairness to their pilots, many companies just have conservative interpretations they always use, and their pilots never really have to learn the ins and outs of the regulations. And then there's other companies that push as hard as they can......

 

[CFIse]

So, even though you can part 91 it, it still counts toward your flight time limitations? So what is the advantage of flying part 91 back to base?​

[/LEFT]

You get home, the plane gets home, you start your rest at home.

For example - we would often fly A to B, pick up passengers and fly B to C. Wait 10 hours in the FBO and fly C to B. We were not legal for a Part 135 flight B to A - out of duty time. So there were 2 options:
1) come home Part 91
2) get a hotel, get legal rest, then come home.

For a variety of reasons 2 doesn't work, maybe there's another crew back at base who need the plane etc. So we'd Part 91 home. Now I wouldn't hesitate to call fatigued if need be, but 10 hours in MOST FBOs you can find a comfortable chair and get a few hours of sleep - so I never felt like it was a dangerous activity.

 

[wheelsup]

You get home, the plane gets home, you start your rest at home.

For example - we would often fly A to B, pick up passengers and fly B to C. Wait 10 hours in the FBO and fly C to B. We were not legal for a Part 135 flight B to A - out of duty time. So there were 2 options:
1) come home Part 91
2) get a hotel, get legal rest, then come home.

I see. Basically under part 91 there is no requirement to fly a maximum of 8 hours nor duty time limitations, hence if you fly 7.9 hours and are on duty 15:59 when you arrive at "B", including any previous part 91 flying, you are legal. Flying "B" to "A" you fly part 91, therefore part 135 regs don't apply, therefore you can fly over 8 hours and/or fly greater than the 16 hour maximum duty time under 135. Am I correct?

My question is, what does Austin mean by this?

If a duty assignment is scheduled to include even one Part 135 flight (leg), however, then §135.267 applies to the entire assignment in terms of whether you can accept it or not.

Are they just being conservative? It seems to infer that if you have a 135 leg in there, the entire duty period is now controlled by 135 regs, although that seems contrary to what operators are doing (ie part 91 ferry back home, such as Colgan does).

 

[EatSleepFly]

It *IS* commercial flying on the empty leg home - and so it has to be counted in your commecial flying totals for daily or between rest, and the 7 day, calendar month and calendar year totals.

If it is the last leg home, and is Part 91, it does not count towards daily flight/duty time limits, but it does count towards montly, quarterly, and yearly limits.

 

[BrianNC]

I sent an email to RAM Air Freight's Director of Operations using ESF's scenario and here is the repsonse:
______________________

Hi Brian,

If the plane is empty, it is considered a Part 91 leg or a repositioning leg. Basically, the customer pays for the revenue leg, which has been priced for whatever repositioning is required. Repositioning is usually where the most revenue is made!

 

[wheelsup]

If it is the last leg home, and is Part 91, it does not count towards daily flight/duty time limits, but it does count towards montly, quarterly, and yearly limits.

He said totals, not limits.

Would flying more then 8 hours under unscheduled 135 require more rest then say flying 5 hours? The way I read it it does. If you flew 9:30 in one day would you be entitled to 16 hours rest (before beginning a 135 duty period)?

I know for 121, if you fly over 8 hours you are entitled for a greater rest period than if you flew <8.

 

[CFIse]

I see. Basically under part 91 there is no requirement to fly a maximum of 8 hours nor duty time limitations, hence if you fly 7.9 hours and are on duty 15:59 when you arrive at "B", including any previous part 91 flying, you are legal. Flying "B" to "A" you fly part 91, therefore part 135 regs don't apply, therefore you can fly over 8 hours and/or fly greater than the 16 hour maximum duty time under 135. Am I correct?

That's correct.

Are they just being conservative? It seems to infer that if you have a 135 leg in there, the entire duty period is now controlled by 135 regs, although that seems contrary to what operators are doing (ie part 91 ferry back home, such as Colgan does).

I don't know what the quote means - I guess I'd have to see it in context. A schedule would have to be legal under Part 135 to be accepted, but since Part 91 flying isn't under Part 135 it isn't part of your schedule, so maybe that's it.

 

[Texasspilot]

Well i'm starting with my 3rd 135 operator and its been different at every one.

1st said A-B leg is 135 so is B-C. However C-A is 91.

Second said all legs flown for the company are 135.

3rd said all empty legs 91 all legs with people on board is 135.



For my last freight job the POI stated that any time the company required you to be in the airplane it is 135. If your required to fly somewhere and pick someone up its 135, if your required by the company to fly back home then its 135.
Unless you chose to duty off and flyback during your rest so you could make it home.

Same POI says that if you can't drink a beer than you are not on rest. Therefore none of this "willing to fly" on call 24/7, duty starts when you get called BS.

Maybe they were following the spirit of the law as opposed to whats written but they were also the ones handing out the violations and pulling certificates. It all depends on how the POI reads it and how hard the company is willing to push back.



The main benifits have to do with wx minimums at airports but its kind of a trap because you can get into an airport 91 that you can't get out of 135.

 

[CFIse]

It all depends on how the POI reads it and how hard the company is willing to push back.

It's not that hard to pushback - just innocently, while smiling the whole time, ask your POI if they'd just mind putting that in writing on the FSDO headed notepaper. At that point most POIs stop acting like God and do some research (JetBlues POI apparently being the rare exception).

Although most of the time if you can live with the regulation as interpreted by the POI it's much easier to go along to get along and live to fight over something more important to you.

The whole 24/7 pager thing had a LOI issued on it a while back - basically you cannot be on required call (that is must answer your phone be available for work etc.) because that would be duty. However the company can give you a pager, and if they need you page you, and if you feel like it you call back, and if you're legal to go then you can accept the flight. Which is fine and dandy if you're sitting on your General Counsel sized butt in Washington DC but doesn't take much account of the real world - where if you won't carry a pager and answer it 24 hours a day somebody else will.