First leg 91 vs. 135

CFIse said:
Ummm - I think you just agreed with me. An empty non-rev repo. is what we're talking about - and you just said it's Part 91.
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No, I'm not agreeing with you. I said I agree that a non-revenue leg can be flown Part 91. I'm talking about the original scenario I presented:

Me said:
A charter broker calls up and says, "we need 4,000 lbs. of freight picked up at XYZ at 2300." So the customer is paying for the airplane to be flown from your base, ABC, over to XYZ.
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ABC to XYZ is a revenue leg, empty or not, hence it's supposed to be part 135.
 
Not where I used to work. The customer paid for the repo to pick up the freight, and the leg(s) with the freight on board. After it was dropped off, it was up to the company to reposition the plane, or more likely, have us sit there and wait until another trip came up that went back towards home so they wouldn't lose money flying the plane empty. I don't know of any companies where the customer pays for the empty leg home... at least not of the auto parts freight haulers. I spent many a night shooting the breeze with pilots from other companies who were also waiting around for another trip to come up.
 
wheelsup said:
I have one for you:

"Hey, I need you to fly my dog from B to C."

ESF gets in his metro and flies A to B to pick up the dog.
You then fly B to C to drop it off.
You then fly C to A to come back home.

Are you saying the customer doesn't "pay" for the time the airplane is flying from C to A? And is that the yardstick the FAA uses? Anytime the aircraft is being paid to operate is when it's being operated under 135? I thought it was only when there were persons or property for hire on board.
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Correct. The customer doesn't normally pay for the C to A leg. At least not in the on-demand freight world, like I said above.

And is that the yardstick the FAA uses? Anytime the aircraft is being paid to operate is when it's being operated under 135?
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Don't know for sure, I guess that is what is up for debate. The way that I, my former POI, and plenty of other people read the regs (that I referenced above), yes. I'll buy a case of beer for someone who can show me where it says whether or not having freight on board makes the slightest difference.


Where did your post go?? I'm quick, aren't I? :)
 
EatSleepFly said:
No, I'm not agreeing with you. I said I agree that a non-revenue leg can be flown Part 91. I'm talking about the original scenario I presented:
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So it's your belief that charter companies DO charge for the leg to position the aircraft to pick up the customer, but DO NOT charge for the leg to position back to base after dropping the customer off - they do that leg for free?

Try not to let your limited understanding of the business based on flying auto parts get in the way of understanding the bulk of the charter world (freight and passenger) where the plane is expected to end up back at it's original base.

A data point for you. Remember the Gulfstream that crashed on it's way to pick up George Bush Sr? I assume we can agree that was a charter flight and the aircraft was being run empty to pick up the ex-Pres? Here's how the NTSB categorised it:

NTSB Identification: DCA05MA011.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Monday, November 22, 2004 in Houston, TX
Probable Cause Approval Date: 11/20/2006
Aircraft: Gulfstream Aerospace G-III, registration: N85VT
Injuries: 3 Fatal.

Now why would they do that if the first leg was Part 135?

Face it - all you know about the charter business you picked up being a pilot, I've been involved in a lot of other different positions in the charter world, and your misunderstanding of the regulations (you seem obsessed with holding out as somehow being related to this discussion) means you're coming to gunfight armed with a pillow.
 
EatSleepFly said:
Correct. The customer doesn't normally pay for the C to A leg. At least not in the on-demand freight world, like I said above.
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My last job was 135 charter, people mostly but boxes on occasion. Our customers always paid for the empty positioning legs, whether before or after the full leg(s), because we came back home when we were done rather than wait for a possible pick-up where ever we happened to be. I understand that that is different than what your company does.

I always understood that the empty leg home could be flown Part 91, even though someone else was paying the bill.
 
EatSleepFly said:
Correct. The customer doesn't normally pay for the C to A leg. At least not in the on-demand freight world, like I said above.
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In YOUR on-demand freight world they didn't pay, in almost all other operations they do pay, and certainly in the passenger world.

You need to let go of the idea that because the customer is paying for the aircraft to fly that makes it Part 135 - it does not, you have to have passengers or cargo on-board before it's Part 135.
 
Well, you sure are good at being a douchebag and putting me down, but I have yet to see anything to back up your statements. Like I said, by all means, prove me wrong. I'm not going to just take some anonymous person's word for it though.

Until then, I'm sticking with my interpretation of it.
 
EatSleepFly said:
but I have yet to see anything to back up your statements.
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What about his NTSB post?

I deleted my post because you stated that operators in the on demand world don't charge for the last leg home. I personally don't have much experience in the 135 world so I deleted it as you said they don't charge, hence no reason for me to ask again in a subsequent post. That being said, the 2 pax 135 companies I've been involved with did charge for the leg home. It sounds like a lot more do charge for the legs home then you are leading on.

Your main argument for your cause is the statement in the applicability section stating "or intending to operate" is that correct?

What is the FAA's definition of a "ferry flight". That is excluded from operating 135. Would operating without any persons or property on board be considered a "ferry" flight?
 
I don't know anything about any of it, but CFIse's side sounds more logical and reasonable. Not to mention the NTSB post.
 
wheelsup said:
What about his NTSB post?
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He's just guessing that it was a charter flight.

Your main argument for your cause is the statement in the applicability section stating "or intending to operate" is that correct?
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My main argument is that whole long post I made last night with references- something I haven't seen from CFIse.

What is the FAA's definition of a "ferry flight". That is excluded from operating 135. Would operating without any persons or property on board be considered a "ferry" flight?
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I thought about that too, but I can't find a definition for ferry flight. I've always been under the impression a ferry flight is the company moving the plane for whatever reason, perhaps I'm wrong.
 
You're right. My apologies to CFIse and everyone else.

Anyways, I'm done with this discussion unless someone would like to actually offer up some facts, proof, references, etc.

Clearly, I am clueless about 135 regs.
 
How about someone call AOPA? They might have an interpretation to confuse everyone some more.

btw, what is the arguement about?
 
wheelsup said:
Like repo'ing to pick up pax or cargo?
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I suppose that's probably it. Proof that POI's don't necessarily know what they are talking about. We always always flew the first leg 135 where I worked before. I'm still not completely convinced, but I'll buy that.
 
We always always flew the first leg 135 where I worked before.
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A question for everyone. If you start your day on an empty reposition leg, when does your 135 duty day start?
 
The minute you walk in the door and do any "duty" for the operator. That one is spelled out pretty clear, but I suppose CFIse will tell me I'm full of it.
 
wheelsup said:
A question for everyone. If you start your day on an empty reposition leg, when does your 135 duty day start?
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Does the "lookback" regulation regarding rest specifically refer to "135 duty", or just "commercial" flying? Does flight instructing count when looking back for your ten hours of rest?
 
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