PPL Oral :(

meyers9163

meyers9163

Well-Known Member
Well first of all lets start by saying I thought I was ready. However, Sunday night I found that the FAA was going to be examining my DE. Therefore the DE was being examined while he was examining me. To start off our mx department messed up the records. They had made a typo and put the 100hr inspection in when it was suppose to be the annual inspection. They accidentially put 100hr on the paper when it truely was the annual. Needless to say the guy from the FAA looked up and said, "Hopefully you havent flown this plane in a while, have you?" Anyways after that delay we got on with the oral. Basically everything was fine, then we got to the x/c. I had messed up b/c we were told to plan from MQJ to TYS. I had forgotten that when you get to TN the elevation change. However we kept on after this and he pointed out how I did a nice job highlighting a restricted area and going around it, and knowing the wildlife area I had to be 2000' above it. Anyways we moved from there to systems and I was able to nail engine, fuel system, pitot static, and then he asked about the Vaccum system. I thought, Ok the heading indicator and attitude indicator are powered by it and the gyros in them make it work. However he wanted even more and I could not give more. Then it got even worse, he asked about the induction system and I thought it went fine.

Basically after 3 hours! Yes 3 hours, he went word for word out of the PTS he asked me to leave so him and the FAA guy can talk. Basically after 5 minutes the FAA guy left, and on his way out said, "Enjoy your ppl" so I was thinking great! However we sat back down and he goes, "unfortunately I am not going to be able to pass you." He then went on to say his hands were tied and that normally he would drag things out and get them but the FAA was there and he couldnt. Keep in mind this DE typically has 30 minute oral exams, mine 3 hours. From there he stated 3 things, enduction system, vaccum and elevation on the x/c as the things to correct and be ready for. From there I went to pay him and he said no thanks. Basically he wasnt going to accept any money for this checkride or the re check even due to the FAA being there. So now I just am wondering if the FAA wasnt there if he would have passed me.

Great thing was after all this my CFI spoke to our flight school manager and he told him that when the FAA is there no one ever passes. He then went to state that "Paul will make a great CFI when he gets there" so that kind of made me smile. At least I know when I get to a point when I'm ready my CFI has a great feeling I'll have a job ready for me. Just stinks that I now have a pink slip (FYI arent those things ugly in color)! Anyways I'll be going back up on Wednesday and i'll get it done then. Hope this might help someone in the future. Basically if you know the FAA will be sitting in on your oral/ride know every single thing from the PTS. Like I said this DE went line to line from the PTS and asked the questions. Then stated next time it wont be that way. Anyways its a learning experience and I'll pass it on Wednesday! :)
 
MEYERS...I feel for ya. I would be willing to bet that if the FAA examiner wasn't on scene that your DE would've "helped" you in the areas you were lacking. What I mean by "help" is...he could have asked the question a different way or maybe led you into the answer a lil' bit to help you get out what he was wanting. Without knowing what he was looking for with the vacuum/induction system questions, it's hard to say if you were on track. He might have been looking for more along the lines of the vac system overall has a engine driven vacuum pump mounted to the accessory gear case on the engine, vacuum relief valve that can be set to maintain desired pressure (4.5 - 5.4") for proper operation of gyros in the heading/attitude indicators, vaccum pressure indicator, vaccum relief valver filter, central gyro filter, and rubber tubing to connect each of these items. You could go on to draw the system out if you know it well enough or start rattlin' off how as the pump turns the air is drawn through the central air filter and then through the tubing to the indicators causing the gyros to spin and air continues throught the vacuum relief valve to the pump where it is dumped overboard intot he engine compartment...blah, blah, blah.
Take that sort of info and apply it also to the induction system. Get out the POH for the aircraft you are using and talk to the mechanic at your school to see if they can make you more knowledgable on the subject. Just seems to me that you would've been fine if the FAA wasn't there.....gotta remember, DE's can meet their objectives in their style when they are one on one, but when the emaminer is being evaluated they'll have to abide by what the FAA expects and wants. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but the timing sucks for you.
The SNAFU of the annual being signed off as a 100hr is something you have to be very careful of. How often have you physically looked at the aircraft logbooks to ensure the inspections are current...probably like most, never...except when doing a checkride. Mechanics are human beings also and make mistakes as well as everyone else, but as pilots and trainees....we assume that everything is good based on the plane has already been flying. It's just a matter of being complacent. Besides checkrides, I've never had someone (pilot) ask me to see the master logbooks to ensure the proper sign offs have been done. Remember, you are assuming the mechanic didn't forget an AD, 2 yr checks (pitot static, transponder, altimeter), ELT batteries, or signing off a 100 hour/annual inspection. You'll nail it next time, but if I may make a suggestion......when asked about the checkride failure later on down the road in an interview--don't say you failed because the FAA was present examining the DE...just my $.02. Learn from this and move on and kick the crap out of the oral for your retake and future checkrides. Good luck on Wednesday with the remainder of oral and the flight portion. Let us know how it goes.....will be anxious to hear about the white slip :-)

Pac Man
 
Thats too bad, man, but just keep your head up. I know that probably doesn't help much but I'm sure this experience will just make you more wise. The old saying is "there are those who have busted a checkride and those who will..." Sounds like the examiner was having a tough time with the whole situation, too. Good luck on the re-check!
 
One side note, our FBO uses this DE all the time and we have a list of his "typical" questions he ask. Today however he was unable to just use that list, and instead he just did it straight out of the PTS. I really have a strong sense that if it were not for the FAA being there he would have guided me through like some of said. He's a great guy and as we left him and I were joking around. Just a little bump in the road and come Wednesday the rest of this oral will be a breeze. Anyways after systems was the pre flight inspection anyways! Gosh so close yet so far away today!
 
meyers9163 said:
my CFI spoke to our flight school manager and he told him that when the FAA is there no one ever passes.
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Run ! Run as fast as you can from this school !!

Any school that knowingly allows "easy checkrides", and knows that when the FAA does the check that the student won't be up to standards does not have the student's well being in mind - they only care that you are flying their planes.

Every checkride is supposed to be right out of the PTS and "making it easy" on the potential private pilot is not a worthwhile goal to have.

S'matter of fact - it's downright dangerous.
 
nosehair said:
Run ! Run as fast as you can from this school !!

Any school that knowingly allows "easy checkrides", and knows that when the FAA does the check that the student won't be up to standards does not have the student's well being in mind - they only care that you are flying their planes.

Every checkride is supposed to be right out of the PTS and "making it easy" on the potential private pilot is not a worthwhile goal to have.

S'matter of fact - it's downright dangerous.
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Nah man its a reputible place. Very high class and strict. We use the same DE so we know his style. I knew everything out of the PTS. It seems like you misunderstood that the exam for my ppl was 3 hours of oral. And the DE admits if the faa wasnt there he'd have passed me. Nothing wrong with where I train.
 
meyers9163 said:
And the DE admits if the faa wasnt there he'd have passed me.
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IMO there's something very wrong with that. Its the equivalent of a restaurant getting a health code inspection. Normally they wouldn't pass, but the night before they quickly clean everything up, and after the inspection is done it goes right to crap again. Kinda defeats the purpose.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
IMO there's something very wrong with that. Its the equivalent of a restaurant getting a health code inspection. Normally they wouldn't pass, but the night before they quickly clean everything up, and after the inspection is done it goes right to crap again. Kinda defeats the purpose.
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Just as my buddy who is a checkairmen for Skywest said, when the FAA is there most feel they have no option. They feel the only way to pass someone is if they nail it all. Therefore in order for them (the DE or checkairmen) to be safe is by failing the student. However my friend for SKW will pass them if he believes they are ok, however it stated that most would rather FAIL them because they dont want to deal with the FAA thinking otherwise.... It would be the safe option.... Is that fair, eh not really but its life.... I'll re study and move on, no biggie! If you do not seem to understand let me spell it out again, PPL and 3 hour oral? Many cannot say even 2 hour oral for a PPL let alone 3.
 
meyers9163 said:
Just as my buddy who is a checkairmen for Skywest said, when the FAA is there most feel they have no option. They feel the only way to pass someone is if they nail it all. Therefore in order for them (the DE or checkairmen) to be safe is by failing the student. However my friend for SKW will pass them if he believes they are ok, however it stated that most would rather FAIL them because they dont want to deal with the FAA thinking otherwise.... It would be the safe option.... Is that fair, eh not really but its life.... I'll re study and move on, no biggie! If you do not seem to understand let me spell it out again, PPL and 3 hour oral? Many cannot say even 2 hour oral for a PPL let alone 3.
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meyers, this is not directed at you. You are a victim of circumstance. In your mind, a 2 hour oral is overlong, because that is what you have become accustomed to as being real. In most cases, it probably is, but the problem is the phrase, 'in most cases'.

In most cases, a newly certificated Private Pilot will only rent (or buy) an airplane similar to the one he trained in; 4 pax, relatively slow, limited range, so he won't immediately 'fly' out' of his known training environment.

The accidents come from the fast movers who 'buy up' or 'stretch out' way further than their training has prepared them for.

Largely as a rusult of the 'easy' PPL.

40 hours was enough 40 years ago, when the airplanes flew fast at 90 kts, and there was only 'controlled' and 'uncontrolled' airspace. The 40 hours (actual air time) was on flying the airplane. and pilotage. no radios.

Now there is a lot, I mean A LOT MORE, for the Private Pilot to know and be skilled at before being loosed on the system.

Think about the resturant analogy. Do you want to eat food at a resturant that only 'cleans up' for inspections, but allows dirty food otherwise?

I know - we all live with it; the fast and easy way - and mostly we survive with it. I/We have learned to look out for ourselves and live in a less than perfect envirionment - but...
...is that really what you want?
 
tough luck dude.

I imagine I would have had some problems if my examiner didn't help me out some. Sometimes questions are phrased in a way that you don' tknow what they're asking, etc.

you'll nail it next time
 
Wow...terrible luck. Believe me most PPL's out there right now with their ticket don't know those answers.
 
Bummer on your experiance first. It is disheartening to hear that someone did not pass their PPL- especially the oral.

Honestly though, I would take a good look at things, because places that only prep you for one individual's checkride isn't always a good thing. The fact of the matter is, there is a reason for the Practical Test Standards, and it's intent is to insure that everybody throughout the country who tests for his/her private pilot certificate is held to the exact same standards and tolerances. That can make a checkride more of a bummer, like in your case, or it can be positive too, so you don't have examiners choosing for themselves that the max lost or gained on a set of steep turns is 10 feet for example - the PTS would help students who attempt to go with that examiner.

Now, a PPL is a liscense to learn. It permits you to go out and make your own experiances, without having your instructor "babysit" you (for lack of better term). That liscense to learn is also a liscense to bring people along with you as you learn.

You had made mention of when you get to be a CFI it will be nice to know you could instruct where you currently are. That means you will be having checkride after checkride as you progress through "the ranks". Not being held to the PTS for your PPL could result in commercial or instrument or both being MUCH harder! Both instrument and commercial have their own things about them, but both assume you are proficient to the PTS standards prior to starting, not just proficient to a specific examiner's "list of questions".

I did take a look at my PTS for Private Pilot before responding, and there isn't a time limit on the Oral. That examiner has the authority to continue any and all questioning until they deem you are proficient to the standards laid out in the PTS. Some oral exams will be longer - my Instrument was 4 hours long... I knew all the information, it just took that long. I have been informed of CFI checkride orals starting at 7:30am, going until 12:00... breaking for lunch, starting back at 1:00pm, and going until 6... that's before the flight. That's a 9 1/2 hour oral. Many times the flight would just be the next day.

The examiner is supposed to be looking for a pattern, and for the applicant to consistantly miss PTS. You listed 3 things that he got you on, which is easily considered a pattern.

I don't mean to come down on you, but I can see where if this all was the case, that it is to your benefit to get those things figured out prior to continuing on. It will save headache and heartache later. I'd suggest sitting down with your CFI, and working through those problem areas that the DPE officially "giged" you on... and exploring them in a large depth. Things I would look at:

1) Learn how the instrument work (ex: how does the "Gyro" work? What allows the airspeed indicator to work?) If you explain it in depth to him, he can't say you don't have an understanding of the insturments

2) Learn all you can about aircraft systems as they relate to your aircraft. Try to learn enough that you will teach him a thing or two. Having a full understanding that you can easily converse without having him have to prompt you for information will prove of benefit.

3) Review Cross Country flight planning. Think of all the possible questions and scenerios that could come out of the flight you have to plan, as well as other theoretical flights. If you are ready to answer them... you will be set.

Remember in all 1-3, don't state something you aren't fully prepared to talk about. That's why I suggested learning all you can about them. If you don't use the knowledge to pass your checkride and oral, that's fine. You can never know too much information. Maybe that knowledge will help you 25 years down the road when you and your family are taking a cross country someday, or perhaps it will be of assistance when you become a CFI and have to explain and teach it to a student.

Another recommendation is something that doesn't happen very often that I ever knew of... get a "Mock Oral". Contact a CFI candidate and ask for one. This is EXCELLENT practice for both of you. You get the advantage of having (often times) free "tutoring", and they get the advantage of experiance trying to teach some material! I have begun doing that this past year for students, and most are astounded by the results. They go in feeling prepared, and they leave little to no doubt in their DPEs' minds that they know what they need to know... I have had enormous success - out of the 10 people this past year that have gotten a mock oral from me, 10 have breezed through their oral, no problem. I have done 6 Private Pilot, 2 Commercial, and 2 Instrument. All of which have come back to thank me.

I wish you the best of success when you retake it. Notice I didn't say best of "luck"... luck has nothing to do with it. Flying is a skill, and the knowledge is a skill. You've worked hard getting where you are... now it's time to show that examiner. Show the examiner, and you will succeed.
 
From this experience, you've learned something for the future when you're a CFI. I always sat down with my students the day before the checkride, and got out all the of the maintenance logs. We then went over them, and made sure they knew where to find all the inspections, as well as making sure they were all up to date, all required inspections were notated, and the plane was airworthy. In fact, it's good practice to do that as a private pilot as well on a plane you rent. Remember, if the FAA were to decide to ramp check you, and you flew a plane with the wrong maintenance entry, you'd be the one busted for flying an unairworthy plane.

As for the rest of the oral, there's no question it's going to be tougher when the FAA sits in, sorry for the bad luck. :(
 
Sorry to hear about your oral, but I think your attitude is terrific! I think 3 hours for a PPL oral is nuts, just because that's going to rival what I expect my CFI oral to be (granted it's going to be MUCH tougher).

Anyways, way to keep your chin up. Learn from this experience and move on, just as you said!
 
Whoa, I started at 4 pm and didn't finish the orals until 8:30. Fortunately, my DPE also "educated" me thoroughly on stuff I knew the answer but not the significant impact surrounding a simple rote answer to a question. I passed the orals, but I wasn't 100%. . .not even close.
 
Oh shoot yeah that was a fun day! But if you read a few forums down on the 23rd I'm taking my IFR. Hopefully with any luck the FAA will stay far away! If that's the case I know I'll be able to pass the 1st time given a little luck with good wx. Feeling pretty confident and looking forward to a non pink slip ride!
 
meyers9163 said:
Oh shoot yeah that was a fun day! But if you read a few forums down on the 23rd I'm taking my IFR. Hopefully with any luck the FAA will stay far away! If that's the case I know I'll be able to pass the 1st time given a little luck with good wx. Feeling pretty confident and looking forward to a non pink slip ride!
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Sorry. I didn't even look at the date of the original post. Good luck on the IR ride!
 
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