Circle to Land vs. 91.175

[Bascuela]

Now we all know to go below the MDA we need to be in a continuous position to make a normal landing. I’ve always taught that we you go visual (or the hood comes off) that you should level off and maintain that altitude until you can make a continuous descent to landing. This has always worked for me because students tend to go below MDA still at midfield downwind. Also, this works because you’re usually only at 500 – 700 feet HAA. Now for the question. What is your opinion of a MDA that over 1000’ HAA or even 1500’ HAA. From a LEGAL standpoint should you maintain that MDA until you can make a continuous descent (in other words no level off) to the runway. That can be tricky sometime because you might break out and still be 2 miles from the airport and really just want to set yourself up for a VFR pattern. I told my student this idea and I’m not sure if it is legally correct. I told my student that if he goes visual above TPA for the airport to descend to TPA and then level off until you begin a normal descent to land. Sounds good to me – but can one LEVEL off once going below the MDA for landing. Again legally speaking – not real world. – Thanks

 

[Stone Cold]

Now we all know to go below the MDA we need to be in a continuous position to make a normal landing. I’ve always taught that we you go visual (or the hood comes off) that you should level off and maintain that altitude until you can make a continuous descent to landing. This has always worked for me because students tend to go below MDA still at midfield downwind. Also, this works because you’re usually only at 500 – 700 feet HAA. Now for the question. What is your opinion of a MDA that over 1000’ HAA or even 1500’ HAA. From a LEGAL standpoint should you maintain that MDA until you can make a continuous descent (in other words no level off) to the runway. That can be tricky sometime because you might break out and still be 2 miles from the airport and really just want to set yourself up for a VFR pattern. I told my student this idea and I’m not sure if it is legally correct. I told my student that if he goes visual above TPA for the airport to descend to TPA and then level off until you begin a normal descent to land. Sounds good to me – but can one LEVEL off once going below the MDA for landing. Again legally speaking – not real world. – Thanks

Well, if the ceiling is above 1000' HAA, then it's VFR, as long as the visibility is met, and if you're shooting an approach to a field with that high of an MDA, then they are probably wanting you to be basically VFR for some very good reasons. The vis on those approaches is also probably 2-3 miles, which would allow at least a contact approach, if not going totally VFR.

I guess my point, without anything to back it up, is if you're at an airport and you have basic VFR, then I don't see why you couldn't get at the very least a contact approach and maintain your own separation from obstacles. I highly recommend you know the area if you're doing this. If you're uncomfortable with the area, then stay at MDA until you can make a continuous descent to the field.

I'm sure somebody who flies into mountainous areas will provide more insight into it, but my basic philosophy is, if I know the area and can get in on a visual or contact, then I'll do it...if unfamiliar, or weather doesn't permit, I will stay at MDA until I can safely land.

Clear as mud??

 

[nosehair]

91.175(c)(1) "The aircraft is continuosly in a position from which a descent can be made..."

Not "...in a position from which a continous descent can be made..."

Makes a difference, huh?

 

[meritflyer]

:yeahthat:

The FARs lay it out pretty clear.

 

[VicariousLiving]

The circling MDA includes provision for obstacle clearance and a reasonable climb gradient from the MAP to the missed. If you drop below the MDA on the circle you toss all those TERPS criteria out the window--along with the safety net they provide. IOW, yes, it is illegal. There are legal methods to accomplish the same: 1. cancel IFR, 2. request a visual, 3. request a contact approach. BTW, it is also a checkride bust.

 

[nosehair]

you might break out and still be 2 miles from the airport and really just want to set yourself up for a VFR pattern. I told my student this idea and I’m not sure if it is legally correct.

Nobody's talking about "tossing out TERPS criteria". The poster isn't asking "do you think it would be a good idea to set up a normal vfr pattern to land when you are in such an obvious position?"

He's asking (I think) "Is such a maneuver legal?"

I quoted the exact wording of the FAR, which has maybe taken on a commonly misunderstood meaning: To me it says you must be in a continous position to make a normal descent, and a normal descent is not necessarily continuously descending. Maybe on final approach, but not necessarily from a downwind position, and what's normal depends on aircraft type, and other variables.

Nevr mind about the checkrides; we all know ya hafta do what the examiner wants, regardless of the regs. I am not arguing with an examiner, nor am I going to "point out" the reg.
Checrides are conducted under their own rules and normally, the examiner gives you "visual" at the prescribed visability mins which would normally be such that a descent would normally be continous, but it isn't mandatory, just because someone reads it into the regulation.

...aaand I know you probablywanted to emphasize the importance of "something's different" about an approach with an MDA above vfr mins, so yeah, what's up with that; be careful, but I think if you are within the confines of a visual trafic pattern, you can fly it like a pattern.

 

[ATPInstructor]

Hello all,

There are only a couple things that must be done legally during a circle maneuver.

• 91.175 MDA must be maintained until normal maneuvers and descents can be use to make a landing
• 91.175 The flight visibility noted on the chart must be available
• The AIM also states we must discontinue a circle when we lose sight of the airport environment 5-4-21

There is no guidance that suggests the descent from a circle maneuver must be continuous. Consequently, some mountainous airports require circling maneuvers that incorporate multiple level-offs.

I would like to make a couple of suggestions regarding circling maneuvers.

• Prior to beginning a circling approach have a plan on how to maneuver near the ground, then stick with the plan or go missed. It is unsafe to ad lib near the ground.
• Note that most companies have Sop's for circles and many training manuals make circling path suggestions based on airspeeds and turn radius's. Adhering to these procedures gives you the best chance to execute a stabilized approach.
• Normal maneuvers to a landing are usually considered vertical descents of less than 1000 FPM and bank angles of less than 30 degrees, 25 degrees when using a flight director.

I am a fan of circles for many reasons. They are often exciting and fast paced. They require advance levels of both knowledge and skill to execute smoothly. They are cheap as they often use one navaid to utilize all the runways on an airport. However, they are also very dangerous as they combine our lowest allowable maneuvering speeds (sometime in a dirty configuration in icing conditions) with our lowest allowable maneuvering altitudes.

 

[meritflyer]

Normal maneuvers to a landing are usually considered vertical descents of less than 1000 FPM and bank angles of less than 30 degrees, 25 degrees when using a flight director.

Do you have a reference for this?

 

[tgrayson]

Normal maneuvers to a landing are usually considered vertical descents of less than 1000 FPM and bank angles of less than 30 degrees, 25 degrees when using a flight director.I am a fan of circles for many reasons.

I wasn't aware there were any interpretations on this, but searching found a few, none of which apply to Part 91 ops though.

From AC120-29A:

4.3.1.6. "Normal Maneuvering" Considerations. Part 91, section 91.175 requires that approach procedures should be based on use of "normal maneuvers" before and after passing DA(H) or MDA(H). Normal maneuvers typically do not involve use of bank angles greater than 30 degrees, pitch attitudes in excess of 25 degrees nose up or 10 degrees nose down, or sink rates in excess of 1100 ft. per minute below 500 ft. HAT while maneuvering to land within the touchdown zone, during go-around, or during a rejected landing. During a missed approach, pitch attitudes in excess of +30 degrees or bank angles greater than 30 degrees would typically be considered excessive.


From FAAO 8400.10 Air Transportation Operations Inspector's Handbook

The circling MDA must be maintained until an aircraft (using normal maneuvers) is in a position from which a normal descent (less than 1000 feet per minute)