Flying Schools

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ihavewings said:
BEWARE of FlightSafety: I was a student there and had a very difficult time getting my instrument rating there. The Seminole was just to fast for me to catch on to. I suggested doing my rating in one of their instrument rated single engines and they refused. The result was incompleted flights and review boards (actually taking my money), then one day I had a meeting w/Mr. Skovgard (the director) and he terminated my training. Thats right, after spending $80,000 I got kicked out of school. Its not that I was a slacker or anything, I really studied and tried hard. I NEVER missed a lesson or was unprepared for a flight. Its just that I didn't "fit" into the FS way of doing things and they told me to leave. Do I feel it was very unprofessional? Yes. Do I feel like FS did all they could have to help me, a struggling student? NO. Would I recommend FS to anyone? NO WAY. If you don't fit into their "cookie cutter" way of teaching, then you dont belong there. I wish I knew this $80,000 ago. I should have bought my own airplane and hired my own instructor instead of throwing it away at FS. Oh well such is life. If they dont want my money, someone else will...afterall I have enough of it!!!!
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Seriously...stop whining.

FSA isn't for everyone, bud. When I arrived there that fact was made clear both by my instructor and in the fine print. I'm sure if you'd bothered to do a little research you'd have found that it is not Safety's job to spoon feed you through the program. The issue of getting "yellow-sheeted" for incomplete flights and facing the review board is FSA's way of deciding (on a case-by-case basis) whether or not it's a waste of their time and your money to keep you in the program. Skovgaard probably did you a favor by cutting you loose. Do you honestly think that the airlines aren't going to expect you to meet their requirements and operate per their "cookie cutter" standards? If you can't, they'll find someone who will. FSA training is similar to the airlines in that regard...hard work and studying isn't everything. You have to meet the STANDARDS. The program and the standards are preset and I doubt that you spent $80,000 there without even making it past the Instrument Rating (a.k.a. Step IV a/b). I'm sorry if the Seminole is to fast for ya'...but that makes it evident that another school or method of training will be better for you as an individual.

I'm not saying that FSA is perfect, but you need to take a hard look at yourself before ripping on a program that has been successfully producing pilots for years. (And BTW, I'm not affiliated with FSA other than being a grad, so this isn't a company man giving you any kind of party line.)
 
Check_Six said:
I doubt that you spent $80,000 there without even making it past the Instrument Rating (a.k.a. Step IV a/b).
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The internet is so great, because everyone assumes they know it all. This person is the hardest working person I have ever met in my life. I, as well as a few other students, were pretty shocked when we heard this had happened. They made it sound like they were doing him a favor, yet he had already spent well over the quota for the rating. It seemed like they milked him for all he had, and then cut him loose to keep their percentages up.
 
bLizZuE said:
The internet is so great, because everyone assumes they know it all. This person is the hardest working person I have ever met in my life. I, as well as a few other students, were pretty shocked when we heard this had happened. They made it sound like they were doing him a favor, yet he had already spent well over the quota for the rating. It seemed like they milked him for all he had, and then cut him loose to keep their percentages up.
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The internet has nothing to do with my comment. I would have said the same exact words to his face. No need for keyboard-hiding here...I stand behind my statement.

I hate having to repeat myself...but it doesn't matter how hard you work if you can't meet the standards. I would think this is a familiar concept as we (pilots) all must meet the minimum standards (see: PTS) in order to earn each FAA rating. An FAA check airman doesn't ask you if you feel that you've worked hard enough to deserve a rating. He simply ensures that you can meet the requirements. If you can't, then no certificate for you.

I'm sorry that this person was seemingly liked by all and couldn't make the cut, but do you really feel that FSA was out to get him? From your response to my previous comment I think that's a rhetorical question. You obviously do feel that they just took his money and tossed him to the curb.

And I don't claim to know everything, but I'm taking a pretty educated guess that (assuming he only made through Steps I-III + a portion of Step IV) he didn't spend $80,000. Money is money, and it's tough that he spent some of his on lesson retakes and whatnot, but I'm struggling to believe $80,000.

I'm not an •, and I can sympathize with a student struggling through a program. But saying that it is ANY SCHOOL's (not just FSA) fault for you not getting through a rating seems silly. You seem to be making it through the program alright. I made it through. Many others have made it through. But this just wasn't the right place for him. Rather that making an angry post on JC, he should be out finding a program that works for his style of learning. Then, he can make a positive post about the new school and compare the differences of the two programs. That would be more helpful to a prospective student pilots than just trash-talking FSA because you're still burning about a personal issue.
 
ihavewings said:
BEWARE of FlightSafety: I was a student there and had a very difficult time getting my instrument rating there. The Seminole was just to fast for me to catch on to. I suggested doing my rating in one of their instrument rated single engines and they refused. The result was incompleted flights and review boards (actually taking my money), then one day I had a meeting w/Mr. Skovgard (the director) and he terminated my training. Thats right, after spending $80,000 I got kicked out of school. Its not that I was a slacker or anything, I really studied and tried hard. I NEVER missed a lesson or was unprepared for a flight. Its just that I didn't "fit" into the FS way of doing things and they told me to leave. Do I feel it was very unprofessional? Yes. Do I feel like FS did all they could have to help me, a struggling student? NO. Would I recommend FS to anyone? NO WAY. If you don't fit into their "cookie cutter" way of teaching, then you dont belong there. I wish I knew this $80,000 ago. I should have bought my own airplane and hired my own instructor instead of throwing it away at FS. Oh well such is life. If they dont want my money, someone else will...afterall I have enough of it!!!!
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SOMETHING is missing here..... First, they have always allowed students to do their instrument in the single and still do. Second, Skovgard is the fairest person there. He also works with the best interest of the student in mind, always. Third, $80,000 by the time you hit step 4, like I said, there is something missing that you are not owning up to.

When I was there, there was a friend of Check Six's and mine that couldn't make it past private. It wasn't the book knowledge, it was the stick skills. After the review board and Safety sending him up with several check airmen to help him out, they suggested maybe this wasn't for him. After spending 1 and a half times what it should have cost for private and still not being able to pass the ride, he agreed and moved on to another career. The point is, he owned up to it and excepted his fate.

I find it hard to believe that you not only spent $80K by step 4, but that FSA would actually let you spend $80K by step 4.

I hate to say it, but if you cannot pass step 4 at Safety in a 140 knot Seminole, you are going to have a hell of a time in a sim ride with an airline.

good luck with your career. I hope it works out for you...

ILS
 
bLizZuE said:
It seemed like they milked him for all he had, and then cut him loose to keep their percentages up.
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It may have seemed that way, but in the 4 years I was there, I saw them bend over backward for people who were having trouble....on many occasions......It took a long time, with many intervening steps, before they were willing to tell a student that maybe they should try something else. Even students who were "slackers" (for lack of a better term), with consistently poor performance were given many many many chances to fix themselves before they were disciplined in any way. I had a student very similar to the guy you know. Big heart, lots of motivation, and a hell of an attitude. While being great qualities, these don't necessarily make a good pilot. Flight Safety doesn't really care about how you'll do in the future. Their main responsibility is getting you your license. If that minimum requirement can't be met, especially after 80 Large, then maybe it really is time to go buy a boat and cut your losses....:bandit:
 
I understand this, I'm just saying it isn't always so cut and dry as some people would like to make out. I feel for the guy.
 
"Flight Safety doesn't really care about how you'll do in the future. Their main responsibility is getting you your license"

That certainly doesn't make it sound like FSA is on the pedestal that some here want you to think it is. That's why I've always questioned whether FSA is worth the money, not whether their training is good or not. There are lots of places that will get you to the same place for a lot less money.
 
DE727UPS said:
"Flight Safety doesn't really care about how you'll do in the future. Their main responsibility is getting you your license"

That certainly doesn't make it sound like FSA is on the pedestal that some here want you to think it is. That's why I've always questioned whether FSA is worth the money, not whether their training is good or not. There are lots of places that will get you to the same place for a lot less money.
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I should clarify...

My point was that FSA's obligation to the customer is to provide training which culminates in a FAA license being issued. No more, No less. I do agree that a lot of places will get you to that same minimum with far less money being spent. However, if a student has the ability and motivation to excel in a high-intesity program, he'll definitely take more away from FSA's program than many FBOs. It all depends on the student's capacity and eagerness. When I instructed there, I had students that were able to do advanced maneuvers, and learn advanced "thinking" early in their training. I also had other students that were at maximum saturation who barely had enough capacity to pass a checkride......things any student anywhere will have.....the difference being consistency at FSA. The FBO student may or may not be exposed to new thinking or advanced anything...regardless of his ability and progress. FSA always provides this training and information....it's up to the student how much he wants to take with him through his career....:bandit:
 
bLizZuE said:
believe it.
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I am going to try and be civil about this. I can't find their current pricing on the internet so here is a best guess.

Step 1 - Private - $7500
Step 2 - Commercial - $9000 (tops)
Step 3 - ME Private - $5000
Step 4 - Instrument half way - $6000 (tops)

INFLATED TOTAL - $27,500
MINUS - $80,000
--------------------------
$52,500

He either:
A) spent a crap load of money on living expenses and un-necessary stuff...
B) Basically did EVERY lesson twice based on those numbers...

If it is "B" than I hope he has moved on to another career. No offense, but damn that is alot of money un-accounted for. Do you have any idea how many "unsat" lessons that is?

HUGE flags here guys...

ILS
 
launchpad said:
I should clarify...

My point was that FSA's obligation to the customer is to provide training which culminates in a FAA license being issued. No more, No less. I do agree that a lot of places will get you to that same minimum with far less money being spent. However, if a student has the ability and motivation to excel in a high-intesity program, he'll definitely take more away from FSA's program than many FBOs. It all depends on the student's capacity and eagerness. When I instructed there, I had students that were able to do advanced maneuvers, and learn advanced "thinking" early in their training. I also had other students that were at maximum saturation who barely had enough capacity to pass a checkride......things any student anywhere will have.....the difference being consistency at FSA. The FBO student may or may not be exposed to new thinking or advanced anything...regardless of his ability and progress. FSA always provides this training and information....it's up to the student how much he wants to take with him through his career....:bandit:
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Well said...

ILS
 
DE727UPS said:
"and learn advanced "thinking" early in their training"

example?
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I'm not talking about rocket science here...mainly talking about the spatial disorientation, aerobatic training, and CRM courses. These are things that aren't usually taught outside of academy-type places with much consistency.

Other things such as descent planning, fuel conservation, high speed ILS approaches, etc. etc. ..are definitely overkill in a cherokee, but a good skillset to have if the student has the capability. In 11 years of flying, with a third being at FBO's, third at academy/university type places, and the other third at an airline, I've seen these kinds of things exclusively at the college/academy places and the airlines. It's nice to know how to fit into the flow of traffic at larger airports. It's nice to be able to understand how to fly your airplane in an efficent manner, especially if you plan on making flying a career endeavor. Might as well start learning these things early so you can develop and perfect them as you get older and crustier ....

I have no problem with mom-n-pop places...actually I prefer the type of environment they provide. I don't agree with the price at most of the academy-type places....but they do provide a consistent exposure to information and techniques that can be helpful in a pilot's career.

It's nice to know stuff....what it's worth is a personal preference. :bandit:
 
launchpad said:
mainly talking about the spatial disorientation, aerobatic training, and CRM courses.
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I wasn't aware that these are considered "New and advanced" concepts. Keeping your speed up on an approach in Class B isn't really advanced either.

Any other examples?
 
desertdog71 said:
I wasn't aware that these are considered "New and advanced" concepts. Keeping your speed up on an approach in Class B isn't really advanced either.

Any other examples?
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They are not new concepts, but he has a point. Small mom and pops do not teach these things for a couple of reasons. 1) It costs alot of money for a GATII spatial disorientation trainer and aerobatic aircraft. You also have to have instructors on staff for these programs. There is also the cost of insurance with respect to training students in an aerobatic aircraft. CRM can be easily taught at any school. It does help to have someone with experience flying the line on staff to talk about communicating in the airline environment. Of course, CRM should and can be applied in every aspect of flying. It is usually associated with the airlines.

The one place where FSA shines is their instrument multi program. It is what they focus on. They definatley go far above the PTS in this area where small FBO's do not.

2) Small schools rarely have a Chief Pilot, let alone one that has the experience with these types of programs to impliment them.

This is why I always say that if you are going to compare pricing with FSA, compare apples to apples. These programs (which are built in) cost a little more, but also help to provide a very safe, proficient pilot...

ILS
 
I found the GATII trainer to be a total waste of money.

My "mom & pop" school has an areobatic trainer, and all of my students have done spins before I sign them off for the checkride.

The chief pilot at my school is also the chief pilot of a Pt 135 operation, and a DPE.



Clearly not everyone has a teriffic experiance at FSA, I saw a few pople leave there unhappy when I was there. However I stand by my opinion that it is one of the best schools in the country, but it can't be all things to all people.

OTOH, I found the whole CFI hireing process unfair, It basicly boiled down to a 15 minute ground lesson.
 
desertdog71 said:
I wasn't aware that these are considered "New and advanced" concepts. Keeping your speed up on an approach in Class B isn't really advanced either.

Any other examples?
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They are if you consider that most places don't teach these things at all.....the first time I figured out how to keep my speed up in class B was really my first time. Doing an ILS at twice the speed you're used to in actual instrument isn't exactly easy for a 100 hour instrument pilot...
 
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