Most Difficult Sim Senario at the Airlines
- Thread starter Trip7
- Start date
Cheechako
Well-Known Member
Learning exactly what to say and when to say it!
Once you get to the airline level, flying the airplane is second nature- they all fly pretty much the same. The challenge comes with learning the [SIZE=-1]choreography of the particular aircraft type and airline. Learning the "flows" (a series of tasks to be performed, switches to be thrown, numbers to be crunched, etc) at specific times in the flight takes practice. Flying the airplane is easy compared to all the other stuff that goes on in the cockpit.[/SIZE]
I'm glad you said that. Right now, just beginning my instrument rating, I realize just how much I don't know. It makes me worry sometimes about airline training, and sim eval during the interview. I have to assume, by that time, the experience, etc., means it is second nature.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
I know I think about the long term goal but come on now, focus on instrument training and dont allow yourself to worry about what a sim will be like at the airline yet..... Got a long way to go, unless you are a 600 hour wonder, before that point comes....... Keep up the hard work on that rating!
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Like someone else said, alot of the "major" scenarios are practiced during intial training, aborted take-off, rapid depressurization etc. After flying a particular aircraft for some time the flying itself isn't difficult but rather larger "scenarios," like those seen in LOFT. (Line-Oriented Flight Training).
Maybe something along the lines of rapid depresurization over the mountains of Mexico, then as you're taking care of business up front, the FA calls up and says an elderly woman is unconcious in the back...
In a scenario such as this, it's not just a procedure (the rapid descent) but rather the larger picture that one must have a grasp over. Altitude awareness is critical, not only in the descent but now en-route at the lower altitude. Additionally how are we going to handle the sick lady in the back? Divert? Let her go home to God?
This just was off the top of my head....Alot of times the LOFT scenarios envolve low fuel, alternates with crummy weather, a broken aircraft and sick people in the back. Throw in a psycho trying to get into the cockpit and you've just had one heck of a sim-ride. All this at whatever god-awfull time they have you scheduled in the sim. I'm not much of a night-owl and I always seem to be in there at 2am!
Maybe something along the lines of rapid depresurization over the mountains of Mexico, then as you're taking care of business up front, the FA calls up and says an elderly woman is unconcious in the back...
In a scenario such as this, it's not just a procedure (the rapid descent) but rather the larger picture that one must have a grasp over. Altitude awareness is critical, not only in the descent but now en-route at the lower altitude. Additionally how are we going to handle the sick lady in the back? Divert? Let her go home to God?
This just was off the top of my head....Alot of times the LOFT scenarios envolve low fuel, alternates with crummy weather, a broken aircraft and sick people in the back. Throw in a psycho trying to get into the cockpit and you've just had one heck of a sim-ride. All this at whatever god-awfull time they have you scheduled in the sim. I'm not much of a night-owl and I always seem to be in there at 2am!
Probably my hardest scenario wasn't anything to do with a procedure, it was a strange scenario.
MD-88/90 initial training. Another pilot in the left seat on his initial captain checkout.
Our very first V1-cut.
V1 was say, 145 knots.
My takeoff.
Background: At my airline, once the power is set, the captain keeps his hands on the throttle to command an abort if needed. Regardless of who is flying the aircraft during takeoff roll.
About 130 or so knots, we have an engine failure. He doesn't verbally announce it, so using good CRM I announce "Engine failure!".
No response.
I look down at my airspeed again, and we're at V1 now and slooooooowly accelerating towards Vr so we're kind of already committed to taking off even though we're not going to have the performance.
The end of the runway is rapidly approaching (typcal balanced field length scenario) so I manage to get the airplane 'unstuck' and in a flying attitude and finnese it off the ground through a combination of tickling the stick shaker and increasing power on the operative engine to almost to the point where I was running out of yoke/rudder, etc.
It worked for a while but we ended up impacting terrain.
So the difficult thing for me was to figure out if I would have aborted, or figure that the captain was having another airspeed indication (when you start dropping generators, some aircraft can give erroneous instrument indications) or that I did the right thing by actually trying to fly a doomed aircraft after the captain failed to abort prior to V1.
Flying the sim and following a checklist isn't hard. You earn your money by reacting correctly in a high-pressure, non-standard situation that you can't teach with no do-overs.
That's why I say that you can teach any 200 hr n00bie to fly an jet and read a checklist, but decision making... Training is NOT a substitute for experience.
MD-88/90 initial training. Another pilot in the left seat on his initial captain checkout.
Our very first V1-cut.
V1 was say, 145 knots.
My takeoff.
Background: At my airline, once the power is set, the captain keeps his hands on the throttle to command an abort if needed. Regardless of who is flying the aircraft during takeoff roll.
About 130 or so knots, we have an engine failure. He doesn't verbally announce it, so using good CRM I announce "Engine failure!".
No response.
I look down at my airspeed again, and we're at V1 now and slooooooowly accelerating towards Vr so we're kind of already committed to taking off even though we're not going to have the performance.
The end of the runway is rapidly approaching (typcal balanced field length scenario) so I manage to get the airplane 'unstuck' and in a flying attitude and finnese it off the ground through a combination of tickling the stick shaker and increasing power on the operative engine to almost to the point where I was running out of yoke/rudder, etc.
It worked for a while but we ended up impacting terrain.
So the difficult thing for me was to figure out if I would have aborted, or figure that the captain was having another airspeed indication (when you start dropping generators, some aircraft can give erroneous instrument indications) or that I did the right thing by actually trying to fly a doomed aircraft after the captain failed to abort prior to V1.
Flying the sim and following a checklist isn't hard. You earn your money by reacting correctly in a high-pressure, non-standard situation that you can't teach with no do-overs.
That's why I say that you can teach any 200 hr n00bie to fly an jet and read a checklist, but decision making... Training is NOT a substitute for experience.
Holding Short
Well-Known Member
My hardest sim scenario was in icing condition in a CRJ with a deferred APU....(think unpressurized TO/Ldg). Inbound to ATL the captains filght director failed so now I'm flying. Autopilot won't stay engaged either. Left engine starts having oil-pressure problems, and it's since it's intermittent, it's basically a captains call. He decides to keep it running. This of course tells the sim instructor to fail it at the worst possible time imaginable on you. So, we're now flying along in icing conditions, descending into ATL with an iffy engine that has the throttle pulled back on it quite a bit due to the oil pressure problem, which isn't helping our icing problem. The F/A keeps calling up front for one thing or another....I'm still hand-flying. Approach decides to turn around the airport, so now we're trying to change approches and re-brief. I'm getting configured and turning final while the captain is taking care of the unpressurzed landing procedure and of course....about 4 mile final the engine finally quits and catches on fire. What does the captain do???? Instead of just landing, he calls for a go-around. If you've ever done a single-engine go-around while you were already configured for a full-flaps landing, it turns into a goat-rope or VMC demo really quick!!!So now, in this unpressurized, icing, hand-flown, on fire, single-engine go-around the captain messes up the checklist and never opens the 14th stage isolation valve and I'm so busy I don't catch it. The left wing, now unprotected, starts to accumulate large amounts of ice. The airplane is flying VERY squirelly, but we do manage to get it on the ground.....barely! I've never been so task-saturated before! I was spent when we got out of there! Definately the hardest sim session I'd ever had.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Not to monday morning quarter back but why in gods name did he call the go around? That's like that time in the sim that we had an engine burning coming down the ILS followed by a cargo smoke warning and then a lav smoke warning. What's the captain do? Ask for delayed vectors to run the QRH before landing. Grr... I think the back half of the airplane burned off before we even got cleaned up to come back around again.
HAHA...the sim instructor and I were wondering the same thing. Afterfwards he asked him "Do you have ANY idea what you were doing to your FO? Do you not like him or something?" It was all I could do to hold back the laughter!!!
All jokes aside though, it was a good learning experience for everybody......and that's why we do what we do.
darrenf
resident denizen
10 replies before someone mentions ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru
What is happening to this place?????:insane:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru
What is happening to this place?????:insane:
typhoonpilot
Well-Known Member
I agree that LOFTS, properly planned, are the most difficult exercises in the sim. Anyone can be trained to fly V1 cuts, V2 cuts, etc, but decision making can be the most difficult task for Captains. A well orchestrated LOFT can really task a commander's ability to manage the aircraft, the crew, and the passengers while deciding on the correct course of action.
Typhoonpilot
greaper007
Well-Known Member
I didn't know you still do partial panel approaches at the airlines. I thought that was just at the GA level. So is it strictly compass turns still?
Agreed....initial training and pro-checks tend to focus on one task at a time. Lofts on the other hand force you to combine procedures and think quite a bit more outside the box or checklists.
True. I didn't even consider the LOFT.
Fun scenarios like flying from JFK to ATL, hitting birds so you're dealing with smoke in the cabin, a panicky flight attendant, single-engine and having to communicate with oxygen masks on, evacuate the cabin of smoke and flying single engine to a diversionary airport under IMC.
There's really no time for hand-holding of a weak, underskilled pilot at all.
Fun scenarios like flying from JFK to ATL, hitting birds so you're dealing with smoke in the cabin, a panicky flight attendant, single-engine and having to communicate with oxygen masks on, evacuate the cabin of smoke and flying single engine to a diversionary airport under IMC.
There's really no time for hand-holding of a weak, underskilled pilot at all.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Just an attitude indicator failure, the DG is still electric. But with an alternator failure in rain on the left side the right alternator can only be operated at 40 amps instead of the normal 56 amps, blah blah blah. So you end up without your ice protection because you don't want to toast your last working alternator.
You know, crap like that; the only problem is you have to do it yourself and you have nobody to bounce ideas off.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
those are some incredible scenarios they put you guys in. The sim instructor really does try to make you crash. Yesterday on my instr final stage check before my checkride our head instructor had me in the sim shooting a partial panel ILS (no attitude indicator or VSI) in IMC with thunderstorm nearby (mucho rain and wind). What he was really trying to test is my ability to adjust my approach and procedure turns for wind so I wouldnt get blown out of the protected area. It was an interesting lesson, but I passed and checkride coming up.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Our contract prohibits sim ops giving us multiple failures. We can have associated failures (engine fire leads to loss of hydrolics) but we can't have two seperate problems going on. Cuts down on the stress factor a bit, but there are a whole lot of things that can stop working when one thing breaks.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
At AirNet we were told to never, ever do a missed off an ILS, single engine. In fact, our LOFT involved losing an engine just outside the marker. It was tricky going from configed for ILS full-stop to clean and secure and then to SE ILS full-stop! Do any other companies follow that?