? re: charts, pilots for 121

killbilly

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
I see pilots lugging their stuff around, and usually there's a large chart case involved. Here's the dumb question:

1) Why doesn't the airline just store a set of charts on every aircraft so that the pilots don't have to lug them around?

2) Why don't the airlines provide electronic chartbooks along the lines of that super-thin black-and-white chart viewer I saw advertised in the magazine but have absolutely no idea what they cost or how they work? :)(It didn't look like a laptop - more like a dedicated device.)

Just curious.
 
1) Far too efficient and makes too much sense

2) And add extra weight which costs more fuel, which hurts the bottom line?!?!?!?! NO WAY!!!! lol :insane:
 
killbilly said:
I see pilots lugging their stuff around, and usually there's a large chart case involved. Here's the dumb question:

1) Why doesn't the airline just store a set of charts on every aircraft so that the pilots don't have to lug them around?

2) Why don't the airlines provide electronic chartbooks along the lines of that super-thin black-and-white chart viewer I saw advertised in the magazine but have absolutely no idea what they cost or how they work? :)(It didn't look like a laptop - more like a dedicated device.)

Just curious.
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1. Because then somebody has to update them

2. Money
 
Hey Bill

Some of the places like North American, World, Miami Air and other places like tha have a set of Jepps in the airplane. They get the revisions to the pilots and they are usually updating the aircraft library as they cross the Atlantic.

The thing with the Electronic Flight Bag as well it is actually the FAA that is having a hard time certifying them for the airlines. The different FSDOs are a little wary of them.
 
Seggy said:
Hey Bill

Some of the places like North American, World, Miami Air and other places like tha have a set of Jepps in the airplane. They get the revisions to the pilots and they are usually updating the aircraft library as they cross the Atlantic. All others have to lug it around.

The thing with the Electronic Flight Bag as well it is actually the FAA that is having a hard time certifying them for the airlines. The different FSDOs are a little wary of them.
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TheOneMarine said:
1) Far too efficient and makes too much sense

2) And add extra weight which costs more fuel, which hurts the bottom line?!?!?!?! NO WAY!!!! lol :insane:
Click to expand...

Seems like they'd SAVE weight (albeit a little) with not having two sets of chart luggage for the crew. And save even more with cheap, replaceable, electronic versions.

Here's why I ask: in my business, we routinely deal with things like unified messaging, voicemail stuff. There was a study by one of the industry giants which showed that workers spend an average of 2-5 hours a week consolidating and responding to phone and email messages. That 2 hours of productivity, multiplied by millions of workers, translates into many millions of dollars more in savings and increased productivity, simply by merging voicemail to email with some of our bells and whistles.

So, if you spend a little to get a solid, reliable electronic reader which weighs less, is easily updated by upload (time savings), and simple enough that a backup could be kept onboard, wouldn't the carrier consider doing so if the ROI made sense? Or does that credit the carrier with too much logic?
 
killbilly said:
Seems like they'd SAVE weight (albeit a little) with not having two sets of chart luggage for the crew. And save even more with cheap, replaceable, electronic versions.

Here's why I ask: in my business, we routinely deal with things like unified messaging, voicemail stuff. There was a study by one of the industry giants which showed that workers spend an average of 2-5 hours a week consolidating and responding to phone and email messages. That 2 hours of productivity, multiplied by millions of workers, translates into many millions of dollars more in savings and increased productivity, simply by merging voicemail to email with some of our bells and whistles.

So, if you spend a little to get a solid, reliable electronic reader which weighs less, is easily updated by upload (time savings), and simple enough that a backup could be kept onboard, wouldn't the carrier consider doing so if the ROI made sense? Or does that credit the carrier with too much logic?
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A set of Jepps for a year: $500 and the pilots do their revisions while in cruise anyways, so it's not like they're busy and wasting time. Or they do it on their own time when they're not on the clock.

vs.

An EFB: $1,000 minimum plus whatever it costs to get a subscription to get the charts, which will probably be another $500 a year. Plus whatever it costs to replace broken EFB's.
 
What is legal for part 91 and even some 135 operators is (fortunately for the flying public) NOT automatically legal for part 121. Lots of very good reasons for that!

However, FedEx is in the process of changing to fully electronic charts. My understanding is FedEx will be the first U.S. carrier to do so. We already do not have to carry our charts, we have switched to LIDO charts and they are on the airplane in paper format right now.
 
jtrain609 said:
A set of Jepps for a year: $500 and the pilots do their revisions while in cruise anyways, so it's not like they're busy and wasting time. Or they do it on their own time when they're not on the clock.

vs.

An EFB: $1,000 minimum plus whatever it costs to get a subscription to get the charts, which will probably be another $500 a year. Plus whatever it costs to replace broken EFB's.
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I didn't realize they cost so much - I was thinking of the Eflybook from ARINC - but at $1499 plus subscription, that's an awful lot. One wonders about bulk purchase price, though....

Anyway...saw this while I was perusing the site...

http://www.flttechonline.com/Current/FAA Approves ARINC and Jeppesens EFB Document Viewer.htm

Looks like the 121 guys may at least (or rather the carrier) have the option in the near future...
 
Actually... the cost in a 121 environment and the FAA certification procedures are more costly and in depth than we all think. It's not just a matter of buying the tablet PC with the Jepp subscription and you're good to go. Lot's of other costly red-tape certifications and procedures are involved.

One other thing that airlines need to consider is the "Health" cost... Many, many, many people get hurt each year lugging those chart cases around and slinging them over the seats into the slots and then out again. Back injuries, arm injuries, etc... So... when you factor in that cost then it may actually be cheaper to go paperless...

Bob
 
Captain_Bob said:
One other thing that airlines need to consider is the "Health" cost... Many, many, many people get hurt each year lugging those chart cases around and slinging them over the seats into the slots and then out again. Back injuries, arm injuries, etc... So... when you factor in that cost then it may actually be cheaper to go paperless...

Bob
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That E-flybook - I don't think it's a tablet PC. Looks like a specialized piece of hardware - it's like 1/4" thick....

I didn't even think about the health costs. There are 9-1-1 centers that no longer use touch screens for call processing because they had a slew of carpal tunnel and rotator cuff injuries which drove up the county health insurance...
 
Yep... I for one had a personal visit to the employee health clinic for what was the equivilent of a bad case of tennis elbow due to flinging that dam* case over and around the seat and into the slot. It wasn't fun for about a month... A prescription for Super Extra Strength Motrin, waiting patiently and painfully for the inflamation to go down... but yet still having to deal with issue that caused it... every day... wasn't fun.

Bob
 
Another problem is the subscrition costs for the electroninc charts aren't any more affordable. ASA was looking into an EFB and one of the training department guys told us that although you only have 1 per airplane, JEPP still wants to charge ASA based on the number of PILOTS!!! You don't just buy 150 electronic subscriptions! It's based on the number of people that would be using them.

Jepp isn't so dumn that they are going to give up 1900 subscriptions and replace that revenue with only 150 electronic ones!
 
GaTechKid said:
The guys in the training dept told us that's why SKW didn't go with Jepp.
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Same thing we are being told... There is a HUGE initial investment with no long term savings from Jepp.

That being said... for the 10 Charter planes we are getting the EFB... since it would be practically impossible to continuously update and maintain an entire 3+ nations worth of jepps that would include every possible airport the plane could fly into! ;)

Bob
 
Captain_Bob said:
Same thing we are being told... There is a HUGE initial investment with no long term savings from Jepp.

That being said... for the 10 Charter planes we are getting the EFB... since it would be practically impossible to continuously update and maintain an entire 3+ nations worth of jepps that would include every possible airport the plane could fly into! ;)

Bob
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I don't know how they compare, cost wise, but the electronic version of Jepp is essentially just a PDF file on the screen. LIDO actually allows many interactive features, making it far superior in the electronic format.
 
The EFB they're installing is supposed to contain that level of interactivity and logic. For example, it can automatically display the After Landing checklist once you land, it can automatically bring up an associated emergency/abnormal checklist if something goes wrong, etc...
 
GaTechKid said:
The EFB they're installing is supposed to contain that level of interactivity and logic. For example, it can automatically display the After Landing checklist once you land, it can automatically bring up an associated emergency/abnormal checklist if something goes wrong, etc...
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Those features having nothing to do with the type of charts, and the fact remains that Jepp doesn't allow for any interactivity in terms of the chart presentation, while LIDO does.

I would be curious on the system bringing up abnormal checklists, though. That is essentially what the Airbus does on the ECAM. The MD11's philosophy does bring up pertinent items, but the logic was that if we can display what the pilot needs to do, why not just have the system do those initial steps? In any event, I would wonder about an after-market system being able to properly do that. I would imagine that getting part 121 cert for that would be troublesome.
 
seagull said:
However, FedEx is in the process of changing to fully electronic charts. My understanding is FedEx will be the first U.S. carrier to do so. We already do not have to carry our charts, we have switched to LIDO charts and they are on the airplane in paper format right now.
Click to expand...

Capt.
I must confess ignorance ... what are the LIDO Charts.
 
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