ACPP/Private Pilot

themctm said:
bought my own plane because I couldnt find a descent instructor
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Enough said right there. Mid-life career changer that probably thinks you have it all figured out. Yeah...I've had a few students like that. :rolleyes:

Unless you have solid information to support your idea that ATP is a bad school, you should go back to polishing your shiney airplane. I even bet its a glass cockpit Cirrus SR-22 huh? At least it has a built in parachute. On top of the world indeed.
 
Moose wasn't flaming ATP. In the above post I made it clear I was very impressed with instruction at a location outside of the "corporate hqs" What ever issue I had during my training has been worked out, rather quickly. These opinions get blown out of proportion by PRO atp folks who refuse to accept the idea that someone wasn't happy with the service they payed for. Its really as simple as, "this was my experience and here is what I can offer you." I didn't claim ATP is a rip off and in no way did I try to make anyone here seem any less intelligent or credible.

and then there is what you did: Popped onto a thread where no one, including the original poster, even asked for opinions on ATP in general, and flamed the school.
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Yet changing the subject completely and focusing on what themctm had to say is appropriate. Anywho...
I apologize about my rant but as a prospective student I welcomed any and all opinions and experiences that anyone had to offer, I mean we are talking $60k. Anywho, I sincerely apologize and I continually recommend ATP to future students but I am also sure to include what happend to me and several others that suffered a similar experience.

anavalairman2: I wish you the best of luck!

EVERYONE: If you deem its necessary, then I apologize.
 
No need to apologize. I agree that you can't say anything negative about ATP at this forum without getting flamed. It's good when people talk about both the good and the bad of their experiences, be it ATP, FSA, or Joe's FBO.

Don't apologize, just be honest and respectful in your posts. You can expect that in the return rebuttle that's for sure to follow. If it doesn't play out that way the mods can take care of it.
 
Thank you DE727UPS. I have been nothing but respectful and really do hope for the same from my fellow board members.
 
moose said:
Moose wasn't flaming ATP. In the above post I made it clear I was very impressed with instruction at a location outside of the "corporate hqs" What ever issue I had during my training has been worked out, rather quickly. These opinions get blown out of proportion by PRO atp folks who refuse to accept the idea that someone wasn't happy with the service they payed for. Its really as simple as, "this was my experience and here is what I can offer you." I didn't claim ATP is a rip off and in no way did I try to make anyone here seem any less intelligent or credible.



Yet changing the subject completely and focusing on what themctm had to say is appropriate. Anywho...
I apologize about my rant but as a prospective student I welcomed any and all opinions and experiences that anyone had to offer, I mean we are talking $60k. Anywho, I sincerely apologize and I continually recommend ATP to future students but I am also sure to include what happend to me and several others that suffered a similar experience.

anavalairman2: I wish you the best of luck!

EVERYONE: If you deem its necessary, then I apologize.
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Doh! I knew I shoulda quoted the person I was responding to. At no point were any of my posts in reference or response to yours sir. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
DE727UPS said:
I agree that you can't say anything negative about ATP at this forum without getting flamed.
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I disagree... to a degree. ;)

I sum it up like this... This overall site is an "extension of Doug's living room". So this particular forum... just like any other flight school specific forum... is maybe a little corner in Dougs living room where a few people have congragated with a few Mojito's that the D-man whipped up... The topic just happens to be a particular flight school...

So there's some folks in the conversation saying "Hi... what's this all about?", then there's some current students in the conversation saying "Here's what I'm experiencing...", then there's a few instructors and ex-instructors saying "Here's what to expect if you go here..." So the conversation is going great, the Mojito's are very smooth, and everyone's getting along when every now and then a stranger walks into Doug's house... Grab's a Mojito off of the bar with out asking... and makes a beeline for this corner of the living room... and says... "Hey... You know... ATP sucks! Why would anyone go there??"

Now there's like 2-3 guys who get a bit upset at this guy because they are actually trying to learn something or pass information on and some stranger comes in with no frame of reference and starts pissing in this corner... in front of everbody. ;)

People are people... and likely to respond in kind. Thus your thinking that people get "Flamed" on here when there are negative things to said about ATP.

Well, I for one just believe that it's all in the delivery. You flame first... flames come back and tend to burn ya. But, if you came up to the conversation, listened for a minute, then chimed in with a valid concern that was explained well... then we get a nice conversation/debate started that is far from a Flame.

I went back and checked on moose's post... He did it right (IMHO)... http://jetcareers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26719 He was considerate, he stated his issues, and asked peoples opinions. As a result, the Mojito's kept flying off of Doug's bar while advice, debate, and questions followed. Those that needed to take a piss... did so... in the appropriate room/facility... and not in front of the general crowd. ;)

The fact is... there are people who dislike ATP, who had a bad experience with MGMT, with a certain instructor, or location... so be it. The ATP Alumni/Instructors/students/potential students/ know this. This is true at any flight school/FBO around the country. Neither this school, nor any other flight school, can meet everyone's needs all of the time. Just because something negative is said is not immediate cause for someone to throw an "Insta-Flame" log on the fire... but if someone comes in carrying their own XL supply of "Insta-Flame" logs and just keeps throwing them on the fire... well then... :)

DE727UPS said:
It's good when people talk about both the good and the bad of their experiences, be it ATP, FSA, or Joe's FBO.
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I seriously can not agree with you more.

Bob
 
Airdale said:
Enough said right there. Mid-life career changer that probably thinks you have it all figured out. Yeah...I've had a few students like that. :rolleyes:



Unless you have solid information to support your idea that ATP is a bad school, you should go back to polishing your shiney airplane. I even bet its a glass cockpit Cirrus SR-22 huh? At least it has a built in parachute. On top of the world indeed.
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No, I bought it when I was 23 with money from a student loan. Don't hate me because I know how to make the system work for me.
No, Its a 2003 172SP
 
themctm said:
No, I bought it when I was 23 with money from a student loan. Don't hate me because I know how to make the system work for me.
No, Its a 2003 172SP
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Oh thats how you did it. You know it would have been cheaper to just go to a professional flight school? Either way you'd end up with the same ratings and at an Airline. But what do I know, I wasn't smart enough to buy an airplane.

moose said:
Thank you DE727UPS. I have been nothing but respectful and really do hope for the same from my fellow board members.
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Moose, you have done nothing wrong! You had a legitimate problem with ATP and for the most part you handled it like a professional. Hopefully everything worked out in your favor.
 
Can someone pass me a mojito? I'd like to try one of them things sometime.

5.gif
 
LoadMasterC141: I apologize for the mis understanding bud.

Airdale: Yes sir, thanks to the feed back and opinions I received from you and several others my issue was resolved. I went through without incident the rest of the way.
 
Airdale said:
Oh thats how you did it. You know it would have been cheaper to just go to a professional flight school? Either way you'd end up with the same ratings and at an Airline. But what do I know, I wasn't smart enough to buy an airplane.
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Its funny. I've flown all over the world-teaching, passengers, freight and no matter what happens that plane is sitting at a flight school right now making me money. Maybe not a check to put in my pocket every month but it makes its own payments, mtx, fuel and I get one hell of a break on my taxes. Its not about being rich and snotty its about using the tools available and making the most out of a situation.
Oh, the first year on my taxes, I got my down payment back. If I lose the plane tomorrow I'm out no money but in five years or so I'll have a nice plane THAT PAID FOR ITSELF.
:yeahthat:
 
themctm said:
Airdale said:
Oh thats how you did it. You know it would have been cheaper to just go to a professional flight school? Either way you'd end up with the same ratings and at an Airline. But what do I know, I wasn't smart enough to buy an airplane.
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Its funny. I've flown all over the world-teaching, passengers, freight and no matter what happens that plane is sitting at a flight school right now making me money. Maybe not a check to put in my pocket every month but it makes its own payments, mtx, fuel and I get one hell of a break on my taxes. Its not about being rich and snotty its about using the tools available and making the most out of a situation.
Oh, the first year on my taxes, I got my down payment back. If I lose the plane tomorrow I'm out no money but in five years or so I'll have a nice plane THAT PAID FOR ITSELF.
:yeahthat:
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Sounds like a pretty good investment to me.
 
I went to ATP and instructed there, but most people on this board know that I am not an ATP cheerleader. I argue that some of ATPs programs (ie. airline transistion program) is a waste of money or that its not the paradise that some paint ATP to be...with that being said when you say comments like this....

themctm said:
I just cant understand why anyone would want to go to ATP...don't you actually want to learn anything?
Not to be negative or anything...
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you're gonna catch some sh*t. I really dont think it has too much with the fact that nobody knows who you are yet, but more so that its made without any validity. If you think ATP sucks, by all means, let us know, give us some examples so that potential students that want to go there ahve something to think about. But dont just try and be a smartass and say dumb statements like you just posted above.


themctm said:
:confused:I started at Epic Aviation in NSB,FL, bought my own plane because I couldnt find a descent instructor but finally found two, one a bush pilot wintering in FL, the other a 1900 Capt. for a local company. I wanted to learn from someone who had experience not just a couple hundred hours. I got a guy teaching me stick and another teaching me the system. I wasnt taught to read a checklist while I die but to handle real situations that occur often.
I felt I was lucky to learn from experienced people. I, personally, have a problem with people that are cut out of a mold and then turn around and cut someone else out of a mold. We need to learn from people that have wisdom and experience.
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thats great you got some experienced pilots to be your instructors. Some of us arent/werent as fortunate to know of these people. But please dont think
you're better than other pilots because of who your instructors are. Most of the instructors (atp or any FBO) might be short of 1000 hours tt, but they probably do have a few hundred hours of instructing in the same plane that you are trying to learn on. As well as prepared many students for a checkride that you are trying to pass also. Why doesnt that experience count for anything? Just because one is a 1900 pilot and the other is Bush pilot doesnt mean they are better instructors. I assure I would want an ATP/FBO instructor prepping me for my instrument checkride over a Northwest 747 capt any day. Why? well first of all My checkride isnt ina 747, secondly the 74 capt flies DTW to NRT most of his life, while my fbo instructor teaches other students about instrument flying. I could go on and on....

as far as the cookie cutter comment goes, well unfortunately its the way the industry is. And checklists arent a bad thing. My guess is that the bush pilot is the guy getting you to fly around without one.


themctm said:
I'm scared sometimes to think the guy in the right seat of my jet or t.p. only has 600 and 1 and has probably left the pattern only to do supervised cross countrys in ideal weather.
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I completely agree with you there....but as an instructor I would only send my ppl students out in ideal weather too. I dont know about all the other instructors out there, but I think they will agree with me...
 
"Just because one is a 1900 pilot and the other is Bush pilot doesnt mean they are better instructors"

I would say it means they have vastly more experience as pilots than your average ATP CFI. That would more than likely, make them better instructors, all in all. No guarantee of it, though.

I happen to know a NWA 747 Capt who's a DE in Seattle. I'd say he could prepare you for the IFR checkride better than your average ATP CFI. When I lived in Seattle, I owned a 172 and did IFR training on the side. All while being a UPS 727 F/O. I signed off 50 IFR students. I'd guess that's more than your average ATP CFI.

Point being. I wouldn't knock Bush pilots or Airline pilots when it comes to them being good CFI's. Chances are, they are doing it for fun in their spare time and have WAY more pilot experience than an ATP CFI. Your 747 Capt example I would agree with if he's not set foot in a little airplane in 20 years but, chances are, if he's bothering to prepare you for an IFR checkride, that's not the case.

I, too, could go on and on...
 
Oh guys dont get me wrong. I'm not saying that someone who flys a 1900 is a god. I'm just saying he's been around a while, knows some of the in and outs(like you dont have to play the exact recording back to ATC everytime they tell you to do something-or maybe thats just one of my petpeeves!), has probably had to deal with some less than perfect weather and learned something from this and does his best to pass it on.
I just think that can benefit everyone-rather than someone who just finished their CFI checkride-which everyone who's ever taken one and passed definetly deserves it-and passes on more bad habits without ever getting any experience. Especially if that student has no desire to go past the PPL.
I thank God every day how lucky I've been in my short career and just hate to see people with this sparkle in their eye all doughy faced thinking ATP is going to get them straight into a high paying job with an airline when there are 8,459 different things in this field to do that don't have anything to do with making poor money while still flying jets.
If being a flight instructor wasnt looked down on so poorly and paid half way descent I bet guys at the end of their career would come back, teach and you would see the quality of pilot this country producing skyrocket. And I'm being general here. I know there are a lot of instructors out there that will know so much more than me at the end of my career. I'm just saying.:)
 
DE727UPS said:
"Just because one is a 1900 pilot and the other is Bush pilot doesnt mean they are better instructors"

I would say it means they have vastly more experience as pilots than your average ATP CFI. That would more than likely, make them better instructors, all in all. No guarantee of it, though.

I happen to know a NWA 747 Capt who's a DE in Seattle. I'd say he could prepare you for the IFR checkride better than your average ATP CFI. When I lived in Seattle, I owned a 172 and did IFR training on the side. All while being a UPS 727 F/O. I signed off 50 IFR students. I'd guess that's more than your average ATP CFI.

Point being. I wouldn't knock Bush pilots or Airline pilots when it comes to them being good CFI's. Chances are, they are doing it for fun in their spare time and have WAY more pilot experience than an ATP CFI. Your 747 Capt example I would agree with if he's not set foot in a little airplane in 20 years but, chances are, if he's bothering to prepare you for an IFR checkride, that's not the case.

I, too, could go on and on...
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touche, I was just trying to point out just because he was a 1900 pilot doesnt make him a great instructor. How are you, the 747 capt, and a CO capt, that i have heard of in the IE, instructing. Our company doesnt let us instruct on the side because they say it counts towards the 1000/year. is it cuz you guys fly a lot less than the regioanls? I know United and NW upped their caps, I would assume its the same for most of the other legacy carriers....
 
meyers9163 said:
Uh oh! the newbie is causing issues already?
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Just his initial posts, his last one in response to mine was great. Just as long as someone can get something out of it. I dont want him to think he has to be a yes man, its fine to disagree but tell us something besides "ATP sucks", its fine if you say it, just tell us why you think so.
 
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