Never Again!! New CFI's must read!

Airdale

Airdale

Well-Known Member
Let me tell you a story. I've got about 200 dual given, I train students in multi engine aircraft for Instrument, Commercial and what not.

I was giving training to an Instrument student who has his rating but hasn't flown in awhile. We were flying yesterday, solid IMC everywhere. The ceiling at one of our destination airports for practice approaches was 300' AGL and visibility was 1/2 or less. Mins for the ILS approach were 256' AGL. Student got setup on the ILS approach and did fine flying it outside of the outer marker. We get down to about 600' AGL, still in solid IMC and he starts to loose the needles bad. We went almost full scale on the localizer and we dropped 1 dot below the glideslope before I yanked back on the yoke to get back up to it. Then we go half scale deflection above the glideslope, localizer needle nearly slammed against the wall. I grabbed the controls and said "My airplane". I start trying to get back on the glideslope and get the localizer back and he's fighting me on the controls. So I yelled "Get the hell off the controls!!" The guy started freaking out and I literally had to push his hands off of the controls. I managed to get the airplane under control, still above the glidepath but at around 300 AGL I could see the Approach light system, so I just executed the missed (which is what we were going to do anyway) and got the airplane up and out so to speak.

But let me tell you, when you're in IMC and the student starts screwing up, you have gotta watch sometimes because he locked up on the controls and scared the crap out of me. I want the students to make their own mistakes, but at safety's sake you have to take over at some point. Maybe I should have taken over sooner, but the fact is when I said my controls he didn't give them over and we were at such a critical point on the approach that things got ugly real fast. This airport sits in a valley, want to talk about your stomach dropping.

Never again will I let a student shoot an approach down to mins in actual until they've proven to me that they can handle it. I always brief the exchange of flight controls and I didn't expect what happened. Just a heads up for the new CFII's, might want to think twice about taking a student you have no experience with up in actual for approaches.
 
hmm. taking up a student who hasnt flown IMC in a while into solid IMC seems to me like you learned a bit too :D
 
See my other thread about checking out the renter. I will NEVER fly in IMC with someone I've never flown with ever again. This guy had loads of multi and actual IMC time logged too, but he still sucked so bad I had to take over the controls and scold him as if he were a primary student.

Mike
 
Airdale said:
Never again will I let a student shoot an approach down to mins in actual until they've proven to me that they can handle it. I always brief the exchange of flight controls and I didn't expect what happened. Just a heads up for the new CFII's, might want to think twice about taking a student you have no experience with up in actual for approaches.
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Just curious...how is a student going to prove they can handle it until they go out and actually do it? And how can they go out and actually do it unless they've proven to you they can handle it? Do you see the circular logic?

I can understand how your experience in this case got the adrenaline going...but stop and think for a while about the implications of what you're talking about.

As a CFII, I'm a huge believer in getting people to experience as much as possible with me, rather than having to go out and play with it on their own after their checkride. One night my student and I shot an ILS to minimums, had to go missed, diverted to another airport, then shot an ILS to near minimums at that airport in order to get in. I never touched the controls. His comment to me after it was all said and done? "Wow...that was SO different than flying under the hood." As an instructor, that made me feel great, because it confirmed I had accomplished my goal of stretching his experience base.

I guess we all have personal limits for different situations, but I think a CFII ought to be able to instruct down to minimums. Students are unpredictable at times, but...well...welcome to instructing. If a student can't do something with an instructor there, how can they be expected to do it safely when solo?
 
jrh said:
Just curious...how is a student going to prove they can handle it until they go out and actually do it? And how can they go out and actually do it unless they've proven to you they can handle it? Do you see the circular logic?

I can understand how your experience in this case got the adrenaline going...but stop and think for a while about the implications of what you're talking about.

As a CFII, I'm a huge believer in getting people to experience as much as possible with me, rather than having to go out and play with it on their own after their checkride. One night my student and I shot an ILS to minimums, had to go missed, diverted to another airport, then shot an ILS to near minimums at that airport in order to get in. I never touched the controls. His comment to me after it was all said and done? "Wow...that was SO different than flying under the hood." As an instructor, that made me feel great, because it confirmed I had accomplished my goal of stretching his experience base.

I guess we all have personal limits for different situations, but I think a CFII ought to be able to instruct down to minimums. Students are unpredictable at times, but...well...welcome to instructing. If a student can't do something with an instructor there, how can they be expected to do it safely when solo?
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You know... I was going to post nearly the same thing. Students should experience these situations with a CFII for the first time rather than by themselves AFTER they have their ticket. The only problem I see here is that the student fought on the controls... I have no clue why they do this, but I agree... a serious situation. Still... better this happens with an instructor than when the newly rated instrument pilot is by themselves.
 
ChinookDriver said:
You know... I was going to post nearly the same thing. Students should experience these situations with a CFII for the first time rather than by themselves AFTER they have their ticket. The only problem I see here is that the student fought on the controls... I have no clue why they do this, but I agree... a serious situation. Still... better this happens with an instructor than when the newly rated instrument pilot is by themselves.
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I agree with you and jrh. I like to take my students up into actual. But this student I hadn't even flown with before, and here we are punching in the clouds at 500 agl after take off. I should have seen him fly an ILS approach under the hood first, rather then throw him out of the pan and into the fire.

Its not a big deal that he messed up the ILS, thats why I am there. What scared me is him locking up on the controls. I had an examiner warn me about taking students into actual. He spoke of a few examples where he had students do the same thing and freeze in the clouds. He couldn't explain why, but advised me to get to know them a bit before you trust them. He told me a story where he had a student twice his size freeze on the controls. The examiner had to call ATC and advise them his student would not give up the controls. I didn't think it was possible until yesterday.

Let me tell you, I started to take the controls at about 600' AGL when I noticed the approach going south. I didn't get full control until about 300 AGL, almost at mins. It took me having to yell in the airplane and literally shove his hands off of the yoke. He's a nice guy and I never saw it coming. So today I clearly expressed my displeasure with his actions and told him I would not fly with him in low IFR.

I just thought I'd share the experience because its probably the worst situation I've been in to date with a student. I think all CFII's should get some experience with their students before venturing out in low IFR conditions where the approaches are shot to such a low altitude in IMC. I've trained and signed off 4 instrument students, and each one of them got some good actual with me during their training. This guy was the first one to literally try and kill me. I have always taken students in actual, but after this event, I'm going to think twice about it and make sure that these students know that the airplane is mine, and when I say so I want hands and feet in the air.
 
Airdale said:
I just thought I'd share the experience because its probably the worst situation I've been in to date with a student. I think all CFII's should get some experience with their students before venturing out in low IFR conditions where the approaches are shot to such a low altitude in IMC. I've trained and signed off 4 instrument students, and each one of them got some good actual with me during their training. This guy was the first one to literally try and kill me. I have always taken students in actual, but after this event, I'm going to think twice about it and make sure that these students know that the airplane is mine, and when I say so I want hands and feet in the air.
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I'm not trying to tear you apart as an instructor and I have no doubt you're trying to give your students the best experience possible, but I still don't agree with what you're saying.

Generically speaking, our job as instructors is to guide the student through all kinds of new experiences in order to make them into competent, safe pilots themselves. Because of this, our job inherently involves going into situations where we don't know how the student will react. There has to be a first time for everything.

It might be *good* to get to know a student before going into low IFR with them, but I think it's a fallacy to say you *must* get to know them first. How do you know how a student will react on their first flight ever, training for their private certificate? What about during their first lesson on stalls? Or their first lesson in a twin? The fact is, you can't truly know how anybody will react to anything until you're in that situation with them...but you have to teach them, so you jump in and go for it in all those situations.

In the situation you were in, I highly doubt you would have seen the 'locking up" reaction if you had flown with him for several flights previously. Maybe he would have nailed the ILS every time and you wouldn't have had to take the controls. Or maybe if you were VFR you wouldn't have wanted to, even if he did lose his course. Or maybe being in VFR would be relaxing enough to him that he would have easily transferred the controls as soon as you'd ask for them.

As for briefing students better in the future--that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that--but don't expect it to prevent anybody from ever locking up with you again. Locking up is an involuntary reaction when the student gets stressed or overwhelmed. In the heat of the moment, they aren't thinking about the safety briefing you gave them at the start of the flight. They're thinking, "Uhhhhhh.....uhhhh....crap....uhhhhhh....."

Airdale, by saying all this, I'm not expecting to change your mind. I'm sure you've made your decision about what is or isn't good for you. I'm just offering a counter opinion for other instructors who might be silently reading this.

If I had been in your shoes, I'd retell the story plenty of times during late night BSing sessions with other pilots, but I'd still fly IFR with new students.
 
jrh said:
If I had been in your shoes, I'd retell the story plenty of times during late night BSing sessions with other pilots, but I'd still fly IFR with new students.
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No doubt I'll still fly IFR with new students. Point being is this guy is *already* instrument rated. He just needed some refresher training. Maybe there was nothing I could do to prevent him freezing on the controls, but looking back, it might have been a good idea to ease him back into the IFR environment before literally throwing him in the nasty soup.

He hadn't flown IFR in awhile, so maybe the correct approach would have been to take it easy and let him get comfortable back in the "saddle" so to speak. I teach multi add-ons on a weekly basis and I've seen a lot of surprises from students, but nothing that wasn't easily fixable. Heck I even had one guy that would literally put us into an unusual attitude when we flew in IMC. But *New* students tend to listen to the instructor, they tend to be more receptive and of course any new experience you can give them is a great thing. I also think new students *know* that they are going to make mistakes and that the instructor is their crutch so to speak, to bail them out. I was flying with an already accomplished pilot. Being that the guy was trained somewhere else and already knew this information and had more flight time then me, might have given me a false sense of security and given him the idea that he didn't need to give the controls up to someone with less flight time then himself.

Either way, it wasn't him loosing the ILS that threw me for a loop, it was fighting for the controls in solid IMC. I had a student lock up on the rudder before during private multi training, but that wasn't nearly as nerve wrecking as this. I'm just posting this story so that maybe some instructors out there are aware of the freezing on the controls issue in IMC on a low approach. I still think instructors are obligated to get their students out there and experience some real world aviation, but never at the sacrifice of safety.

Our priorities are safety first, training second. So before I take someone out into low IFR, I'm going to make sure I know its within their capabilities and if its not, I want to make sure they understand what to do when I say "My airplane". I'm not going to let a student take us into the ground for the sake of experience.

jrh said:
I'm not trying to tear you apart as an instructor and I have no doubt you're trying to give your students the best experience possible, but I still don't agree with what you're saying.


Airdale, by saying all this, I'm not expecting to change your mind. I'm sure you've made your decision about what is or isn't good for you. I'm just offering a counter opinion for other instructors who might be silently reading this.
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I absolutely appreciate your opinion. I'm only now approaching 200 dual given, I have a lot to learn as an instructor and I'm sure you've got more time doing this then me, so maybe you have a better approach. Maybe you haven't experienced a student like this. I just know that for the first time as an instructor, I tasted something really bad. I don't know if it was dirt, pavement or Avgas, but I don't want to taste it again!! Thanks for your replies. :)
 
aloft said:
On what planet is it okay to actually scold a customer who's paying for your services? I find that highly unprofessional.
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Um... on the planet where the guy was trying to kill him? And I'm sure by "scold" he meant a serious talk about safety and procedures, which IS what the customer is paying for when he hires a flight intructor. Sometimes a "nice talk" doesn't get the point across.

On another topic, I think we should just carry tasers with us when we fly... it would break that locking up on the controls habit real quick-like.:)
 
One time as a student pilot I froze on the controls too, but it was because we forgot to put the cabin heat on. Only way to fix the problem was to desend into warmer air. Ha Ha. Juat thought I'd lighten the atmosphere a little with some humor.
 
A good lesson here over all for both new IA students AND instructors teaching in the II environment. Just because a student can fly under a hood doesn't mean they can hack it in hard IMC.

I had a student who was all set to take their instrument checkride the next day and we were out doing some brush up work. They were rock solid on their skills and I wasn't thinking twice about signing them off after the flight. While we were out in the practice area some fog rolled in and the ceiling went down to 500. No problem. My student filed a pop up and had no problem intercepting the localizer (still above the cloud deck) and starting on down. Stuff started to go wrong about 100 feet above the layer. I could hear them start to hyperventalate and their control inputs got very abrupt. My the time we were in the layer they were a dot off in both axis and bracketing back and forth. I let them keep going and by 1000 feet they were two dots high, well left of course, not configured and 20 knots fast. I that point I suggested they call a missed approach and break it off as we were no where near stabalized. They looked sort of puzzled and asked me why. I pointed out that we were well behind the curve and they were off the glideslope. That was the first time they even knew something was wrong. Remember, IMC flying is all about SA and "big picture". In fixating on tracking the loc and gs down they had no idea where they were on the approach and how wrong stuff was. The strange thing was they hadn't ever had a problem up until that point. It made me wonder if they had been cheating and looking out from under the hood the whole time.

Similar but different story (which I think I've told here before). A student who was already instrument rating but admited that they were a VERY weak instrument pilot due to the fact that they got through their checkride because a) anybody who their CFI sent to this DE passed and b) they were a girl and the DE always passed girls. So we drilled instrument stuff and basic instrument flying skills. They did ok with just flying the plane but struggled a bit with basic math stuff (courses, altitudes etc). They got better over time and even flew some actual IMC very well including an approach down to near mins. We were on a cross country heading to LGB when we encoutered some icing. While I was working with PSP approach to get lower they kept flying the plane. By the time I finished talking with approach we were in a 45 degree bank and climbing. My student correctly identified the problem but stated they didn't know how to fix it and requested I take the plane. I tried to talk them through a scan to get the attitude corrected but they kept asking me to take the plane. After picking up about 200 feet and turning 45 degrees I took the plane. Fortuantly we popped out of the clouds at 10,000 and didn't have any other problems. They took the plane back shortly after and flew the rest of the way. In the debrief afterwards they came to the conclusion that just because they had their IA ticket there was no way they were qualified to fly in actual as of yet.

So, there you have two pilots, both of whom I felt were well qualified to fly in actual per the PTS guidelines (under the hood for one and in actual for another) but throw in "real world" actual and ice and they both fell apart. The only difference between the two was one knew that something was wrong and the other had no idea.

My point? Make sure you take an instrument student into as many real world situations as you can. I'm not suggesting going close to thunderstorms or getting into icing, but there is no way to simulate true hard IMC. All that said 600 feet off the ground is no place to find out your student has problems.
 
aloft said:
On what planet is it okay to actually scold a customer who's paying for your services? I find that highly unprofessional.
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I agree with you on this one. The only time to scold would be if someone intentionally or recklessly did something unsafe.

Part of being an instructor is having students try to kill you (i.e. a commercial student in an Arrow with controls cocked the wrong way in a moderate crosswind 3-5 feet above runway lights over the dirt ready to touch down without any thought of a go around). You simply take over the controls to avoid the imminent firey cartwheeling crash, get the a/c stabilized, and while you still have the controls camly and with a reassuring tone have the student analyze what went wrong and what the correct course of action should have been. Then of course include it in your post-flight briefing, all with a smile on your face.
 
BrettInLJ said:
I agree with you on this one. The only time to scold would be if someone intentionally or recklessly did something unsafe.

Part of being an instructor is having students try to kill you (i.e. a commercial student in an Arrow with controls cocked the wrong way in a moderate crosswind 3-5 feet above runway lights over the dirt ready to touch down without any thought of a go around). You simply take over the controls to avoid the imminent firey cartwheeling crash, get the a/c stabilized, and while you still have the controls camly and with a reassuring tone have the student analyze what went wrong and what the correct course of action should have been. Then of course include it in your post-flight briefing, all with a smile on your face.
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That's all well and good, for you. But it's not always the most effective method. Some people respond a lot better to harsh criticism...

I had a student who was always pretty good with everything, but on the flight before his checkride, he just could NOT fly a steep turn to save his life. He had played football in HS and collge, and after about 5 steep turns outside of PTS standards, I figured I'd try something different. I was of a similar mindset to you thinking that you should never yell at a student. However, knowing his background, I tried yelling. And I yelled everything. "Come on, you [cat], get your [stuff] together for [frog's] sake" Not screaming but loud and verbally combative. The next 4 steep turns he flew were spot on. +/- 20 feet, and perfect on the bank. He ended up doing the same thing on the checkride and passed with flying colors.

I think in certain cases, the ends justify the means.
 
Different strokes for different folks right.

My instructor was a bit harsh, sometimes I had to tell him to back off. He actually got really annoying sometimes, but then checkride day came and there was no pressure, he had taught me to do better than I would have to for the xride.

I'm very thankful for him being a hardass now, and I have a whole new appreciation.


All that said though, there was times I told him to shut up and wanted to get medeviel on his ass, there's a time to tone it down and a time to be rough(with some folks).
 
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