Twin Training has begun.

desertdog71

desertdog71

Girthy Member
Started flying the Twin Comanche today, and it is quite a bit more involved than flying fixed gear singles of course. Lots of fun though, the performance and handling characteristics are amazing. It handles like a sports car.

The landing was actually smooth, just a little nervous when you have to land at 110 instead of 60. I can see how it would be really easy to get behind the plane. I have more respect for you guys flying twins, but I am loving every minute of it. WOO HOO.
 
Damn I wish I was focused as you, didn't you just start training in like Febuary??
 
Awesome! Whats your middle name? (hint: it should be " Vmc is the minimum airspeed at which directional control can be maintained with the critical engine inoperative. I know I have lost directional control when I have full rudder deflection into the operating engine and the aircraft continues to turn in the direction of the failed engine. - sir " :D )
 
smokey1 said:
Nervous at 110? I'd be nervous at 60.......The faster the better in my opinion.
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The first time you fly a complex twin, having flown nothing but fixed gear, fixed pitch singles, is a whole lot more involved. I felt like a pre-solo student again. I had no trouble landig or anything, but things do happen much faster, while also getting used to a complex, doing 3 gumpfs checks and monitoring new parameters. I can't be the only one that felt a little behind the first time. I am sure I will adjust quickly, but for now I just need to get the feel of the plane.

It is a very rewarding experience though, and I am going back up in about 45 minutes. I feel a bit more motivated again now. :)
 
Airdale said:
Awesome! Whats your middle name? (hint: it should be " Vmc is the minimum airspeed at which directional control can be maintained with the critical engine inoperative. I know I have lost directional control when I have full rudder deflection into the operating engine and the aircraft continues to turn in the direction of the failed engine. - sir " :D )
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:yeahthat:

Should be just a few days from now in fact. Oh and good news, I get an FAA ride along on my checkride. No pressure there. :whatever:
 
Sounds like fun...you haven't landed a 172 at 110 mph though? :confused:

:)

J/k, I haven't done it at 110, but I've been over 100 at the numbers before...just takes a little bit longer to get on the ground and slow down.
 
Just another update and I will also post on flyblog.

Today was the first day of Engine out procedures in the Twin. All I can say is that the anticipation was far worse than the reality. I found it relatively easy to maintain directional control and run through the procedures. We failed both engines at different times and it requires quite a bit more rudder pressure when the critical engine is failed. We did a few of these in cruise flight and then my CFI also had me do it in a high drag configuration, Gear and Flaps extended.

We then flew over the airport and did a full shut down and secure procedure and I found that the controllability and performance were much better with the engine secured. The zero thrust configuration really doesn't perform as well as a complete shut down.

That wrapped up the engine out lessons for the day, so we took a short hop over to Burlington KUKL, for a beverage and stretch and then returned to Chanute.

Logged 2.8 in the twin today giving me. 170.1 total time and 13.3 ME now. I have lessons in the Twin scheduled the next 3 days. I also have some Comm SE time scheduled so its time to knock out the final 80 hours here and start taking some checkrides.
 
desertdog71 said:
We then flew over the airport and did a full shut down and secure procedure and I found that the controllability and performance were much better with the engine secured.
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So, explain to me why a twin has better performance and controllability characteristics with one engine secured (feathered) vs. windmilling. What happens to Vmc in this configuration and why?

What three physical and aerodynamic forces are working against us during single engine ops?

Is Vmc mainly a roll or yaw issue? Would you rather hit Vmc or a stall first and why?

(just trying to help you prepare for the ME ride :) )
 
meritflyer said:
So, explain to me why a twin has better performance and controllability characteristics with one engine secured (feathered) vs. windmilling. What happens to Vmc in this configuration and why?

What three physical and aerodynamic forces are working against us?

(just trying to help you prepare for the ME ride :) )
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Well, a windmilling prop creates drag therefore more thrust is required to maintain airspeed. This drag also contributes to the yawing effect created by the drag of the windmilling engine and asymetric thrust from the operable engine. As I mentioned I did not think the zero thrust setting did it justice. I liked it better with the engine completely shut down and feathereed.

Vmc is lower in this configuration because it requires much less rudder input to maintain controlability. That being from the reduction of drag from a windmilling prop as opposed to feathered.
 
killbilly said:
desertdog,

are you doing White Air's career program or at your own pace?
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I am kind of doing things at my own pace. Although I should be pretty close to 7 month time frame as opposed to 6 months. The fact that I am working and studying and have kids and a wife and another business on the side kind of slows me down a little bit.

I had zero time on February 21st and I have 170 hrs now, and I really don't have a lot of requirements left to finish. Its just a matter of doing some more Multi training and time building from here. So I imagine it will go by quickly. I figure to be over 200 hrs by the 1st. :)
 
desertdog71 said:
1) Well, a windmilling prop creates drag therefore more thrust is required to maintain airspeed.

2) This drag also contributes to the yawing effect created by the drag of the windmilling engine and asymetric thrust from the operable engine.

3) As I mentioned I did not think the zero thrust setting did it justice. I liked it better with the engine completely shut down and feathereed.

4) Vmc is lower in this configuration because it requires much less rudder input to maintain controlability. That being from the reduction of drag from a windmilling prop as opposed to feathered.
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Alrightyy then..

1 - You're correct. A wingmilling prop does create more drag as it acts like a big dinner plate out on the wing which makes us, the pilot, have to use heavier rudder inputs to control the yaw moment produced. As a result Vmc will go up but keep in mind, it will not go higher than the already pre-determined IAS set forth by the manufacturer. I'd be a little careful to say "needs more thrust". Why? Because remember we're already at a full-power configuration or you should be as we're flying on one engine. The term "more thrust" may be valueless as in light twin ops we really dont have that luxury.

2 - Right.

3 - Well, its really a simulated condition so know how to define "zero thrust". You may want to play with the power setting to different values to mimic the aircraft operating in a zero thrust condition. Zero thrust is a big question on an MEI ride and it can be a very entangling question at that.

4 - Vmc is lower. You're right. Vmc is a loss of directional control. If your MEI is comfortable with demonstrating Vmc to you, he should. I do it in the Seminole all the time for my CMEL students.

Okay, and the bonus question. Would you rather hit Vmc or a stall and why? (I got this on my MEI ride. My inspector was a 30,000 hr. airline/military guy... ouch)
 
Airdale said:
Awesome! Whats your middle name? (hint: it should be " Vmc is the minimum airspeed at which directional control can be maintained with the critical engine inoperative. I know I have lost directional control when I have full rudder deflection into the operating engine and the aircraft continues to turn in the direction of the failed engine. - sir " :D )
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Or LCWBFATCOPS Ah Vmc Factors. GOTTA LOVE IT
 
meritflyer said:
4 - Vmc is lower. You're right. Vmc is a loss of directional control. If your MEI is comfortable with demonstrating Vmc to you, he should. I do it in the Seminole all the time for my CMEL students.
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Actually Vmc is not a loss of direction control. Vmc is the minimum airspeed at which direction control can be maintained with the critical engine inop and a whole bunch of other factors in play (SMACFUM or your other favorite term). At Vmc the aircraft is in fact controllable. 1 knot below Vmc the aircraft is no longer directionally controllable. Not to rain on your parade but I highly doubt you are showing your students a true Vmc demo in the seminole as it is almost impossible to get to or below the true Vmc speed and not stall (which, as you already alluded (sp?) to is a bad thing). You may be simulating Vmc by minimizing rudder input and getting the aircraft to yaw uncontrollably, but that is not true Vmc as you still have rudder to use. There are other planes out there (the 310 comes to mind) where it is possible to due a true Vmc demo and recover due to loss of directional control instead of a stall horn or buffet. Those demos tend to be a bit more exciting (read scary as hell) then the PA44 one.
 
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