PIC time?

[B767]

I was just reading the Pattern altitude thread and am now confused about PIC time. I know that if you're a student pilot you cannot log PIC time. However, once you get your private, all flight time after that - even with an instructor working on you Inst, ME, and Com - you can still log all that flight time as PIC? I always thought that the instructor was PIC thus he could only log the PIC time. Am I wrong? Do both the student and instructor log the training as PIC time?

 

[Champcar]

After your Privates you log it as PIC. Except when working on your multi because you are not multi rated.

 

[casey]

first thing to understand is that *logging* and *acting* as PIC are two completely seperate ideas. Regardless of who is the FAR 1 PIC (legal PIC) in the case of a student/instructor, the student may log PIC if he is rated in category and class as sole manipulator of the controls. The Instructor may also log PIC as allowed by part 61.

And to be more specific since you mention inst, ME and comm, yes you can log the PIC during the instrument (including while in actual conditions) and commercial training. You cannot however log PIC during your initial multi engine training because you lack the category and class rating (airplane multi engine land). If you get additional multi-engine training after obtaining your multi, then you can log that as PIC since you now have the appropriate rating.

 

[Champcar]

After your Privates you log it as PIC. Except when working on your multi because you are not multi rated.

Simple

first thing to understand is that *logging* and *acting* as PIC are two completely seperate ideas. Regardless of who is the FAR 1 PIC (legal PIC) in the case of a student/instructor, the student may log PIC if he is rated in category and class as sole manipulator of the controls. The Instructor may also log PIC as allowed by part 61.

And to be more specific since you mention inst, ME and comm, yes you can log the PIC during the instrument (including while in actual conditions) and commercial training. You cannot however log PIC during your initial multi engine training because you lack the category and class rating (airplane multi engine land). If you get additional multi-engine training after obtaining your multi, then you can log that as PIC since you now have the appropriate rating.

FAA

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

first thing to understand is that *logging* and *acting* as PIC are two completely separate ideas. Regardless of who is the FAR 1 PIC (legal PIC) in the case of a student/instructor, the student may log PIC if he is rated in category and class as sole manipulator of the controls. The Instructor may also log PIC as allowed by part 61.

And to be more specific since you mention inst, ME and comm, yes you can log the PIC during the instrument (including while in actual conditions) and commercial training. You cannot however log PIC during your initial multi engine training because you lack the category and class rating (airplane multi engine land). If you get additional multi-engine training after obtaining your multi, then you can log that as PIC since you now have the appropriate rating.

Good explanation. A related key to understanding is that "logging PIC" is the exclusive territory of one part of one FAR: 61.51(e). All logging PIC questions start there. Nowhere else.

For whatever reason, the FAA decided to have PIC mean two different things. "Logged" PIC is an artificial construct based solely on how the FAA has decided to let you count time toward technical qualification and currency. It almost =never= has anything whatsoever to do with being the Part 1 PIC (responsible for the flight). Those few times that it does have something to do with being the Part 1 PIC, the rule specifically tells you so.

You meet the requirements of 61.51(e), you get to log PIC, even if you are handling the controls of a Mooney Ovation in IMC, have one leg, no instrument rating, no medical, haven't' had a FR in 12 years, and have never flown anything more complicated than a 152. On the other hand, if you =don't= meet the requirements of 61.51(e) you don't get to log PIC even if you are the only fully qualified pilot on than flight.

If you want a real headache, here's my "When May I Log PIC?" FAQ:
http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=2#3

 

[B767]

Thanks for the link. Now, I assume it is the same for part 121? So both FOs and CAs can log PIC time whenever they are the PF?

And lastly (for the moment), if the CA is the PF on a transcon, what would the FO still be able to log his time, just not PIC?

Now this is the last q. Do relief pilots have to check GMT when they sit at the controls and when they leave the controls and only log that flight time that they were at the controls?

 

[wheelsup]

Thanks for the link. Now, I assume it is the same for part 121? So both FOs and CAs can log PIC time whenever they are the PF?

No, CA's are the PIC, FO's log SIC only, even if they are flying the plane.

And lastly (for the moment), if the CA is the PF on a transcon, what would the FO still be able to log his time, just not PIC?

As an FO, you log all time as TT and SIC.

 

[B767]

Which is why it takes a while to get from a regional to major (if they were hiring) or freight because you have to be captain first so you can get the PIC?

 

[wheelsup]

Which is why it takes a while to get from a regional to major (if they were hiring) or freight because you have to be captain first so ou can get the PIC?

well I have around 1800 PIC but it's in small airplanes - most of the better companies want PIC in tubine powered aircraft, and most say it's gotta be multi-turbine, and some (jetblue maybe?) even put a weight limit on what time counts toward their requirement.

you can get the tubine pic in many different airplanes, by far the typical would be at a regional airline but flying freight offers the advantage of getting it a LOT quicker.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Thanks for the link. Now, I assume it is the same for part 121? So both FOs and CAs can log PIC time whenever they are the PF?

It is the ame for Part 121, BUT...

There are no FAA logging rules under Parts 121 and 135. AFAIK, 61.51 is the =only= rule that talks about what the =FAA= wants you to log (and notices that it even talks about what an ATP may log in addition to the normal stuff - and that pretty much =is= dealing with Part 121 (does anyone know of another operation that requires and ATP?).

The BUT is that, if you are a career pilot, you are probably not just logging for the FAA. You are also logging to demostrate experience for employers and potential employers that may be looking for somehting other than what the FAA is looking for.