Learjet 60 crash in West Palm Beach

[🦈💜]

In my personal experience, I find that a huge weakness in EET is the acceptance of asymmetrical aerodynamic loads without correction. Also, in some programs, acceptance of departure out of the high side of the envelope as standard, even if it's far outside of the envelope.

Also, sims can't simulate Gs at all.

But avoiding asymmetrical loading is critical.

 

[MikeD]

In my personal experience, I find that a huge weakness in EET is the acceptance of asymmetrical aerodynamic loads without correction. Also, in some programs, acceptance of departure out of the high side of the envelope as standard, even if it's far outside of the envelope.

Also, sims can't simulate Gs at all.

But avoiding asymmetrical loading is critical.

Pilots rush the recovery and accept sloppiness. Asymmetric G loading is bad enough in fighter jets, but worse in fatty jets that aren’t designed for even moderate symmetrical G loading, much less asymmetrical. It’s a good way to unintentionally bend or break things off of your aircraft during a nose low recovery, which will only make your manageable situation worse,

Lear upset recovery procedure (as is most swept-wing aircraft) is to roll knife-edge in nose-high situations to drop the nose.

It is simply damn near impossible to simulate a loaded, high altitude upset and stall, realistically.

Yup. Just have to tell them don’t do a negative G push over to the horizon from a nose high condition, those Gs aren’t fun, nor a very effective method to get back to the horizon. Even if the jet it’s seriously nose high, say above 45 degrees, and rolling, one can even complete the roll to the nearest horizon with a little pro-rudder back to the horizon upright instead of trying to stop the roll when it’s past 90 degrees and then attempting to reverse it the long way back to 90 to then try to slice the nose to the horizon. These are just things most pilots don’t receive any basic training in. So long as control input is smooth and kept within G limits, the airplane doesn’t know or care what it’s attitude is…Bob Hoover used to demonstrate that in the Shrike Commander and Sabreliner……though getting back to upright flight in a non-aerobatic plane should be done with some urgency and not dilly-dally’d.

If I were king for a day, I’d have all fixed wing pilots go through a mild centrifuge training profile, probably to about 3.5-4Gs tops, just to experience what that weight loading feels like.

 

[DropTank]

If I were king for a day, I’d have all fixed wing pilots go through a mild centrifuge training profile, probably to about 3.5-4Gs tops, just to experience what that weight loading feels like.

"b-b-but... money!" ops

 

[ahw01]

Are you a 121 pilot? Do you have any valuable input or just like to complain?

There is valuable input from the non 121 world

 

[ahw01]

TMZ is usually pretty good about getting accurate names out. IIRC (and I could be wrong), but they were the first to name Kobe in the helicopter crash Jan 2020.

No one should get praise for being first. Privacy matters

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

No one should get praise for being first. Privacy matters

Oh I agree.


But people are people, and people suck.


If anything happens, I have zero doubt that a felllow airline employee will take our mugshot available internally and leak it to the media.

Happens without fail.


Hell, after the CK shooting you had pilots leaking their entire damn seniority list to radical online idiots like Milo and other bloggers in order to “rat” those making anti-CK posts.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

There is valuable input from the non 121 world

There is. But not with his negative connotation.

 

[Wardogg]

So VASaviation backs up the communication back when they were over the Gulf(of A or M, your choice). They asked for direct Freeport to which the controller approves but then subsequently tells them the turn doesn’t look good due to extreme precip 25 miles ahead and 100 miles in diameter. At the time they were at 410. They said they’d look at it and then asked for a fix a little further south and then Freeport which kept them mostly clear.

Seems very strange to me that they couldn’t see the problems ahead at 410 from 25 miles out. So I’m wondering what they were using for strategic planning for getting through a convective SIGMET.

Also finding out the horizontal stab didn’t have deice capability is mind blowing. Tail full of SLD ice and severe turbulence. I guess the question becomes which came first the chicken or the egg. Did the tail come off and it was doomed from the start or did an upset and recovery attempt remove the tail and seal their fate.

I’m flying today through what appears to be a convective line in the Midwest. I can tell you what will be playing through my head today for sure.

 

[caliginousface]

Either way, she took herself out of the situation and decided she was going to die, very early on in the accident sequence.

Just trying to understand as someone that felt like she did a great job still continuing to communicate during the while sequence. By taking herself out, do you mean she immediately became a non functional crew member?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

FWIW I agree that newer pilots seem hesitant to use the word "turbulence" with ATC. Many use "chop" almost as if they are synonymous. There are specific definitions for turbulence and chop, and for the various intensities. Using that specific nomenclature when you pass on information helps all crews speak the same language.

Also, don't be cavalier. If it's moderate, call it moderate. We want to know.

Finally, respect turbulent air penetration speed. On my airplane it's Mach .76

Very often we will be getting beaten up and the FO is like "I'm gonna pull it back to .78"

Why the random number? Boeing gave us a number to go to. If it's bumpy enough to pull it back, then pull it back to the airplane's published turbulence penetration speed.

I promise it won't delay you more than a minute or two.

 

[Soul Brotha']

Seems very strange to me that they couldn’t see the problems ahead at 410 from 25 miles out. So I’m wondering what they were using for strategic planning for getting through a convective SIGMET.

Also finding out the horizontal stab didn’t have deice capability is mind blowing. Tail full of SLD ice and severe turbulence.

1). Physically or on the radar?
2). Most airliners have no anti-ice protection for the horizontal stab but many corporate jets do. Which I always thought was weird.

 

[Wardogg]

1). Physically or on the radar?
2). Most airliners have no anti-ice protection for the horizontal stab but many corporate jets do. Which I always thought was weird.

1 either or I guess. I’ve been IMC at 410 but it doesn’t happen often. At 25 miles though something should have been painting. Unless it was inop. Or not being utilized. Or worst case being utilized improperly.

2 Well, you learn something new everyday. I had no idea. My only 121 time was an ERJ-145 and it had it. Everything else I’ve been on has had it. So that’s quite eye opening.

 

[USMCmech]

Good information regarding the weather side of this accident.

 

[jtrain609]

1 either or I guess. I’ve been IMC at 410 but it doesn’t happen often. At 25 miles though something should have been painting. Unless it was inop. Or not being utilized. Or worst case being utilized improperly.

2 Well, you learn something new everyday. I had no idea. My only 121 time was an ERJ-145 and it had it. Everything else I’ve been on has had it. So that’s quite eye opening.

I won't be surprised if it was either embedded or they thought they could get over it.

We all know flying over a rapidly building cell doesn't end well. The majority of time people get a face full of hail, but SLD is a totally different animal.

But you're right in your earlier post; could have been SLD or an improper recovery.

What surprises me the most is they seemed to be unconcerned about getting ice at -47 C. That should have been an immediate wake up call that they were in trouble, and they seemed to think climbing a few feet was the answer.

I tend to think bailing down and away is the better choice, but I wasn't there.

 

[Kingairer]

I won't be surprised if it was either embedded or they thought they could get over it.

We all know flying over a rapidly building cell doesn't end well. The majority of time people get a face full of hail, but SLD is a totally different animal.

But you're right in your earlier post; could have been SLD or an improper recovery.

What surprises me the most is they seemed to be unconcerned about getting ice at -47 C. That should have been an immediate wake up call that they were in trouble, and they seemed to think climbing a few feet was the answer.

I tend to think bailing down and away is the better choice, but I wasn't there.

The ice thing surprises me too at that temp and duration. Allegedly, she texted her boyfriend 8+min prior to go into the final storm that they were getting ice, so they were in whatever she perceived as ice for a long time.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Just trying to understand as someone that felt like she did a great job still continuing to communicate during the while sequence. By taking herself out, do you mean she immediately became a non functional crew member?

Well, as PM she was certainly monitoring the VSI.

As PM, I don’t think I would have much to say other than reminding PF to take it easy pulling out of a steep descent.

I’d pull back on the power and maybe offer useless stall recovery coaching.

 

[Kingairer]

I won't be surprised if it was either embedded or they thought they could get over it.

We all know flying over a rapidly building cell doesn't end well. The majority of time people get a face full of hail, but SLD is a totally different animal.

But you're right in your earlier post; could have been SLD or an improper recovery.

What surprises me the most is they seemed to be unconcerned about getting ice at -47 C. That should have been an immediate wake up call that they were in trouble, and they seemed to think climbing a few feet was the answer.

I tend to think bailing down and away is the better choice, but I wasn't there.

I dont believe this will be a airframe icing event. I just have a hard time believing they were getting legitimate airframe clear ice at that altitude and duration. Ice Crystal Icing forming up on the windshield and melting and see the ice crystals "rain" for 8 min, I buy that. See the ICI melting on the whindsheild would jive with the "we're managing it". Thats why I asked about if lear has auto-ice before.

 

[CFI A&P]

What surprises me the most is they seemed to be unconcerned about getting ice at -47 C. That should have been an immediate wake up call that they were in trouble, and they seemed to think climbing a few feet was the answer.

Not typed, but I do have some LJ60 training materials at the house. I'd bet Lear-Gates-Bombardier didn't publish performance tables for icing in -47c. If anything, there's probably a note/ caution/ warning/ limitation that prohibits operations in such conditions.

 

[ahw01]

Not typed, but I do have some LJ60 training materials at the house. I'd bet Lear-Gates-Bombardier didn't publish performance tables for icing in -47c. If anything, there's probably a note/ caution/ warning/ limitation that prohibits operations in such conditions.

I wouldn’t try it in the Challenger

 

[jtrain609]

I wouldn’t try it in the Challenger

I wouldn't hang out in those conditions in any aircraft, but @Kingairer has a point that it could have been ice crystals.