Learjet 60 crash in West Palm Beach

Top of Tstorms is where you get really weird ice, the type that isn't interested in following the textbook physics

Water freezes at 0c, unless it's a super cooled large droplet... THEN and have a fun mix up with certain high altitude ice crystals and you have something that isn't taught or even IN most lesson plans.

Start adding in envelope problems (coffin corner PLUS G forces) and you're basically screwed.
Also consider minimum icing speeds vs turbulence penetration speeds
Isn't long until you've painted yourself into a very nasty corner.

Super cooled large droplets were studied closer in the 2010's
Specific High altitude crystals are (finally) being studied closer over the past 5 years with some results

This is a surprisingly easy situation to get into, most of us have likely been close to the edge at one point or another.
 
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
121… I’ve noticed a disturbing trend with the post Covid hires (versus pre COVID era). The tendency to literally slingshot themselves next to a major weather cell. All 3 airlines I’ve worked at the FOM says to clear storms by 20 miles at that altitude. Apparently a suggestion now. They’ll go right up to the red as they hug around it. I can’t even count how many times I’ve had to say, hey, come more left to avoid something they are gonna skirt the edges of. Pre 2020 it seemed people were better at dodging storms.


ASAP reports prior to Covid were mostly cookie cutter errors, fairly dull, mostly meh. Since Covid, them ASAPs be wild.




All to say, it’s a brave new world. Be careful out there.
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nobody will ever be as good as you, we get it. Now go away old man and stop judging everyone who isn’t you as if they’re incompetent.
 
Box hauler said:
nobody will ever be as good as you, we get it. Now go away old man and stop judging everyone who isn’t you as if they’re incompetent.
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Thats what you took from my post? The adults here were having a decent conversation until your post.


Ironic, actually. From the guy who literally wrote:


IMG_0660.jpeg
 
DropTank said:
Super cooled large droplets were studied closer in the 2010's
Specific High altitude crystals are (finally) being studied closer over the past 5 years with some results

This is a surprisingly easy situation to get into, most of us have likely been close to the edge at one point or another.
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Unfortunately up probably isn’t the answer if you’re getting LSCLD at the top of a storm- and there’s not an airplane flying that will continue to do so in that stuff for any significant amount of time.

Yeah, we’ve had relatively new guidance about thin, wispy cloud types around storms- and running engine heats near them because they’ll plug up the P2T2 and possibly flame out the engines.

It’s challenging but most biz jets say +10/-40 in visible moisture is the accepted “icing conditions”. The language about storm tops get buried. Once that IAT goes back green most people don’t run the ice protection.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
Unfortunately up probably isn’t the answer if you’re getting LSCLD at the top of a storm- and there’s not an airplane flying that will continue to do so in that stuff for any significant amount of time.

Yeah, we’ve had relatively new guidance about thin, wispy cloud types around storms- and running engine heats near them because they’ll plug up the P2T2 and possibly flame out the engines.

It’s challenging but most biz jets say +10/-40 in visible moisture is the accepted “icing conditions”. The language about storm tops get buried. Once that IAT goes back green most people don’t run the ice protection.
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Yeah, we go by rules-of-thumb
Don't go into or under the anvil.
Be aggressive about avoiding buildups, even if they look small
Ask ATC once (maybe twice) then TELL them what you're doing
 
tcco94 said:
She was going like 30,000 fpm descent. Yes she was unable to do anything…

Just fight or flight, they knew they were dead. I mean the other pilot is praying. It was what, 70 seconds long from 35,000 feet… I don’t think there’s any logical way to prepare yourself for that or what you would do.
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The jet was a ballistic projectile basically. in one car rear dashcam that recorded the impact, the sound it records sounds upper transonic range.
 
Inverted said:
Another huge issue is the normalization of flying in and near that type of weather in Florida. Controllers will vector you right into that stuff and you see people fly though convective activity all the time out there. Today's weather was more severe but it can be real dangerous flying in Florida.
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Another great reason to bid avoid Florida once one has the seniority to do so
 
With how quickly they lost any pitch control, my mind goes to the the tail icing up. As soon as they initiate the climb is when it seems they lose pitch control which is consistent with tail icing.

Google tells me the Lear 60 doesn't have ice protection on the tail, so maybe the wings were handling the ice just fine but the tail not so much, especially when they got into the worst part of the updraft.

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I vaguely remember radar being required for dispatch at my jet 135 job. But as discussed, radar is only as good as the operator. Nowadays with no radar aboard I only fly around convective if I can maintain VFR. If I can't see it, I can't avoid it. I would be very uncomfortable bombing around at FL350 knowing there were buildups into the 40's around that I couldn't see.
 
Main thing:
Brutal.
Second thing is a sidebar, but I mean this:
I see a lot of underreporting of turbulence. From what I saw above, +/- 700 feet was described as "moderate turbulence." That's not moderate turbulence. I'd argue that's not even severe turbulence.
 
🦈💜 said:
Main thing:
Brutal.
Second thing is a sidebar, but I mean this:
I see a lot of underreporting of turbulence. From what I saw above, +/- 700 feet was described as "moderate turbulence." That's not moderate turbulence. I'd argue that's not even severe turbulence.
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I wondered about that, I’m sure Adsb data could be checked when she said that. I wonder if she was looking at a VSI and it was 700 fpm at that instant and not actually have lost 700 feet off assigned altitude.
 
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