CRM Question Military vs. Civilian

WacoFan

Bigly
Couple questions I thought of after reading the overrun in Miami thread.

First: What is the upgrade process for crewed airplanes in the military? Based on rank? Time/experience? Ass kissing?

How do you log time as the FO in military ops - SIC, or do you log PIC for your legs?

The main question: can you describe what CRM, if any, the military teaches and how that compares to the airlines. With civil aviation there have been instances of FO's reluctant to call out a Captain for job reasons - does rank in the military act as a suppression mechanism against speaking up (thinking about that B-52 crash practicing for the airshow)?

Anyway, things I thought would be interesting.
 
Couple questions I thought of after reading the overrun in Miami thread.

First: What is the upgrade process for crewed airplanes in the military? Based on rank? Time/experience? Ass kissing?

How do you log time as the FO in military ops - SIC, or do you log PIC for your legs?

The main question: can you describe what CRM, if any, the military teaches and how that compares to the airlines. With civil aviation there have been instances of FO's reluctant to call out a Captain for job reasons - does rank in the military act as a suppression mechanism against speaking up (thinking about that B-52 crash practicing for the airshow)?

Anyway, things I thought would be interesting.

Who cares about crewed airplanes? Single seat fighter/attack is the only way to go. :)

But to answer your question, it depends. For the USAF, if one is a first-assignment from pilot training person to a multi-pilot crewed airplane (as opposed to a crewed airplane with a pilot and a non-pilot such as a Navigator rated WSO or EWO), such as a tanker/transport/bomber, you start as a co-pilot (SIC) and your flight time doing that is logged as such. At a minimum hours threshold and with the recommendation of unit Instructor Pilots, you can be selected for upgrade to Aircraft Commander / PIC, and you’d go back to the central schoolhouse for that airframe to do that, as it’s not a local upgrade (unlike in fighter jets).

There are a few exceptions. Pilots who got a first assignment Instructor Pilot selection upon graduation from pilot training, known as a FAIP in the USAF and a SERGRAD in the USN, where they stayed at pilot training to be a UPT instructor pilot; those pilots upon completion of their three year tour doing that, and if they got a follow-on assignment to a tanker/transport/bomber, would be brought in as an AC to those airframes. They would fly as a co-pilot for a short while, but much like a Direct Entry Capt at a regional, they would very quickly move to the left seat once they learned the operation.

Mil pilots log flight time just as anyone else does, with a couple of differences. In a crew aircraft, they log their time by position: AC (PIC), Co-pilot (SIC), and if it’s a augmented crew for extended range or duty time operations, there is what is called “Other” flight time, for the time when you are aboard as an assigned flight crewmember, but not performing AC or Co duties. Other flight time is a mil thing only, and has no civilian equivalent to it for logging purposes, just as enlisted non-flight deck flying positions and officer non-pilot and non-Nav/NFO flight positions, are logged as mil flight time but have no civilian equivalent. For enlisted this would be positions such as gunner or loadmaster, and for officers this would be positions such as AWACS controller officer, etc. Enlisted flight deck and officer flight deck positions, such as Flight Engineer and Navigator positions, do have FAA recognition under 14 CFR 63.

Rank generally doesn’t have a place in affecting CRM, not like it may have before; and it’s not uncommon to see a higher ranking person flying as SIC or whatnot, depending if training or especially in the case of if there was someone who was already a mil officer doing some non-pilot job, got accepted to pilot training, and went to pilot training later in their career….known as “late rated”. Those guys show up as a higher rank to their unit, but are still brand new pilots starting in the co-pilot / SIC position and undergo the normal progression. Of course, being late rated kind of sucks career wise in terms of peers of the same rank, but not in any huge way.

Rank wise, the US Army has dealt with this for a very long time, as they use Warrant Officer pilots as their primary flyers. A Warrant Officer is essentially an E-5 with an Officer’s Club card, who wears a bar with squares and whose job is to be an expert in a particular field, such as piloting in the case of the US Army. Warrants aren’t leadership track persons, though they can hold some leadership jobs in some cases. In the Army, commissioned officers such as Lieutenant’s and above, are expected to hold the unit command and leadership positions, and hence even if they are aviators, flying isn’t their primary duty. You will see many Army units where the Warrants are the senior PICs and IPs, and commissioned officers are usually only up to PIC, but can become IPs, though again that isn’t their primary duty. It’s even more rare to find a Standards Instuctor or Examiner who is a commissioned officer and not a Warrant, but the Army is kind of an outlier in how they run their aviation world, as they are sort of a bunch of infantry dudes/dudettes who just happen to be at 100 AGL. :)

The B-52 crash in 1994 performing for the airshow, is a special case, as everyone onboard that jet was a senior officer, three LtCol’s and a full Colonel.
 
Whatever mike said, I'm sure that's pretty accurate. I have no real understanding of crewed mil flying, other than a number of years more recently, with a non-pilot/no-controls GIB behind me. I've been PIC nearly every flight since I got my wings/flight school, so who knows? :) I will say that even in the 2 seat mil environment I described, we still have CRM and make decisions as a crew. But they generally don't dabble in "pilotstuff
 
Whatever mike said, I'm sure that's pretty accurate. I have no real understanding of crewed mil flying, other than a number of years more recently, with a non-pilot/no-controls GIB behind me. I've been PIC nearly every flight since I got my wings/flight school, so who knows? :) I will say that even in the 2 seat mil environment I described, we still have CRM and make decisions as a crew. But they generally don't dabble in "pilotstuff

Yeah, unless it’s a nugget pilot paired with a seasoned NFO, not much CRM on piloting stuff with a few exceptions.

- Knock it off, that’s dangerous and I don’t wanna die.

- I don’t wanna run out of fuel.

- We aren’t supposed to be doing this.

E-2, C-2 stuff, who knows? They are trading off as required for currency.

Non-TacAir, who cares? Just assume they are 121-bound and are Scientologists.

VAQ-129 doesn’t have any two-stick aircraft, do they? I wouldn’t think so.

@WacoFan - The only fixed wing aircraft coming aboard carriers with two pilots are E-2’s and V-22’s. I don’t know anything about V-22 ops. Nobody talked about how hours were logged until the 121 ATP rule change. Previously, Navy pilots would leave a O-3’s and hours weren’t an issue. Now, these guys find themselves counting hours and may need a transitional gig before knocking on the 121 door.
 
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Yeah, unless it’s a nugget pilot paired with a seasoned NFO, not much CRM on piloting stuff with a few exceptions.

- Knock it off, that’s dangerous and I don’t wanna die.

- I don’t wanna run out of fuel.

- We aren’t supposed to be doing this.

E-2, C-2 stuff, who knows? They are trading off as required for currency.

Non-TacAir, who cares? Just assume they are 121-bound and are Scientologists.

VAQ-129 doesn’t have any two-stick aircraft, do they? I wouldn’t think so.

@WacoFan - The only fixed wing aircraft coming aboard carriers with two pilots are E-2’s and V-22’s. I don’t know anything about V-22 ops. Nobody talked about how hours were logged until the 121 ATP rule change. Previously, Navy pilots would leave a O-3’s and hours weren’t an issue. Now, these guys find themselves counting hours and may need a transitional gig before knocking on the 121 door.

-129 as well as the SH FRS’s all have a couple/handful of dual control configured jets at any given time. There are a few events that require an RP to be paired with an IP in the back seat with dual controls. It’s colloquially called F(T) or G(T) (trainer). I dont do it often, but when i do, my airline self isn’t ready for their 800-1000 FPM touchdowns haha

I think the current JO’s leaving active duty still have the 1500 hrs generally, at least if they did a “production” shore tour (VTs, FRS, etc), but they have to work a lot harder than we did in my day (you normally hit that number easily well before MSR). Some will need to go to Regionals for sure, but not a lot from my community, mainly just the folks who left non-current, which is more of a 20 yr retiree problem than it is a JO leaving.
 
-129 as well as the SH FRS’s all have a couple/handful of dual control configured jets at any given time. There are a few events that require an RP to be paired with an IP in the back seat with dual controls. It’s colloquially called F(T) or G(T) (trainer). I dont do it often, but when i do, my airline self isn’t ready for their 800-1000 FPM touchdowns haha

I think the current JO’s leaving active duty still have the 1500 hrs generally, at least if they did a “production” shore tour (VTs, FRS, etc), but they have to work a lot harder than we did in my day (you normally hit that number easily well before MSR). Some will need to go to Regionals for sure, but not a lot from my community, mainly just the folks who left non-current, which is more of a 20 yr retiree problem than it is a JO leaving.

I posted before thinking that guys are trapping for the first time at RAG. Are those all dual stick trips?
 
-129 as well as the SH FRS’s all have a couple/handful of dual control configured jets at any given time. There are a few events that require an RP to be paired with an IP in the back seat with dual controls. It’s colloquially called F(T) or G(T) (trainer). I dont do it often, but when i do, my airline self isn’t ready for their 800-1000 FPM touchdowns haha

I think the current JO’s leaving active duty still have the 1500 hrs generally, at least if they did a “production” shore tour (VTs, FRS, etc), but they have to work a lot harder than we did in my day (you normally hit that number easily well before MSR). Some will need to go to Regionals for sure, but not a lot from my community, mainly just the folks who left non-current, which is more of a 20 yr retiree problem than it is a JO leaving.

did VMFAT-101 and VFA-125 have dual stick B model Hornets?
 
Non-TacAir, who cares? Just assume they are 121-bound and are Scientologists.

Non-tac air. Where those who sucked at formation maneuvering went to.

I remember when I was getting my assignment after my 3rd ops flying tour; it was to training command for T-38 IP (training command was an expected in the AF, as opposed to a bad thing like USN/USMC). I didn’t want the location of Vance AFB, but was willing to go to Training Command. Call the detailer up to see if i can negotiate that. He asks me where it is i want to go. I tell him T-34Cs with VT-4 or -10, the two joint AF/USN squadrons at P-Cola that train NFO primary. He tells me flatly no, because “I can send any fatty ass tanker or transport dude or dudette moron who graduated at the bottom of UPT to that gig. I need my fighter guys in the fighter assignments.”
 
Who cares about crewed airplanes? Single seat fighter/attack is the only way to go. :)


Mil pilots log flight time just as anyone else does, with a couple of differences. In a crew aircraft, they log their time by position: AC (PIC), Co-pilot (SIC), and if it’s a augmented crew for extended range or duty time operations, there is what is called “Other” flight time, for the time when you are aboard as an assigned flight crewmember, but not performing AC or Co duties. Other flight time is a mil thing only, and has no civilian equivalent to it for logging purposes, just as enlisted non-flight deck flying positions and officer non-pilot and non-Nav/NFO flight positions, are logged as mil flight time but have no civilian equivalent.

Normally for widebody flying I’ve been logging all of my time as SIC. Since there’s 1 CA / 3 FOs or 2CA / 2FOs or 1CA / 2FOs

That’s good enough for United and Delta.

But American wants only time in the actual control seat. Luckily I’ve been recording when I have been PF / PM and IRP3 and IRP4.

But I’ll have to go back now and redo all of my 777 flights and only log time when I’m in the actual seat for the legs where I logged the entire flight as SIC time but was IRP3 and IRP4

I created an Other Column to log the IRP3/4 time so for American I’ll subtract Other from SIC to get actual seat time in the 777.
 
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