Thoughts on this?

🦈💜

Well-Known Member
I came across this website:

and even though it's british (I WISH our min rest was twelve hours, not 10), it's very on-point to all the things I try to explain to people.

It's long, but it hits really hard, for me.

Just wondered if other people had experienced this, and how they dealt with it.
 
I came across this website:

and even though it's british (I WISH our min rest was twelve hours, not 10), it's very on-point to all the things I try to explain to people.

It's long, but it hits really hard, for me.

Just wondered if other people had experienced this, and how they dealt with it.

I've got a number of unfinished but forming thoughts that I will share later. For now, I'd say that the article is a well-intentioned blog post that takes a narrow scope/view of the industry while claiming said scope is the entire industry. Written as is, and taken at face value, it would be an excellence source for citing why we should all be replaced for our own good.

More later.
 
I've got a number of unfinished but forming thoughts that I will share later. For now, I'd say that the article is a well-intentioned blog post that takes a narrow scope/view of the industry while claiming said scope is the entire industry. Written as is, and taken at face value, it would be an excellence source for citing why we should all be replaced for our own good.

I get what you're saying, but from my point of view it perfectly describes what I see, only not as bad. It's one of the few pieces out there that doesn't talk about how much time off pilots get, how they can travel the world, etc, which doesn't apply to pretty much anybody I know. I know it's a bit "a tale of two cities," but . . . aren't we all a bit closer to this truth than we'd like to admit?

I've been awarded three weeks of vacation this year. Sounds great, right? Each vacation was a single week, and was barely enough to let me veg a tiny bit, while trying to catch up on all the responsibilities that had stacked up. I dunno—this guy's writing reflects an idealized version of my reality, and I can't help think that it must be common. A twenty-year captain at my airline recently posted about having the same immutable 4-on, 2-off, 4-on, 3-off grind that I've been working since becoming a lineholder, and how it was wrecking her, and I really felt it. I heard the same thing from a 30(!) year captain friend of mine here not long ago.

More later.

I look forward to your thoughts.
 
I get what you're saying, but from my point of view it perfectly describes what I see, only not as bad. It's one of the few pieces out there that doesn't talk about how much time off pilots get, how they can travel the world, etc, which doesn't apply to pretty much anybody I know. I know it's a bit "a tale of two cities," but . . . aren't we all a bit closer to this truth than we'd like to admit?

I've been awarded three weeks of vacation this year. Sounds great, right? Each vacation was a single week, and was barely enough to let me veg a tiny bit, while trying to catch up on all the responsibilities that had stacked up. I dunno—this guy's writing reflects an idealized version of my reality, and I can't help think that it must be common. A twenty-year captain at my airline recently posted about having the same immutable 4-on, 2-off, 4-on, 3-off grind that I've been working since becoming a lineholder, and how it was wrecking her, and I really felt it. I heard the same thing from a 30(!) year captain friend of mine here not long ago.



I look forward to your thoughts.

The author has used a very broad brush with a very broad canvas in an effort to communicate with the larger, non-flying public.

The problem I see with this piece is that their view is a soda-straw view of a larger picture. I believe you relate heavily to the piece because your reality very much reflects the picture they paint; but you are also well-aware that that reality isn't the complete picture for most of the industry.

TL;DR - regional life is not the totality of aviation, not even the totality of Part 121.

The author seems to want the job to be all things to all people in life, and that's simply not possible. There are plenty of health-and-life-affirming choices one can make within this industry to ease the pressures and avoid the traps that it presents.

But one has to make choices to do so. Those choices, like most things, usually involve trade-offs. And not being aware of that - or ignoring it - is either willfully ignorant or blatantly naive on the author's part, and shirks accountability in some ways.

I do applaud what they're trying to do here, but the way they're going about it is deeply flawed, in my opinion.

That and a buck will get you a really bad cup of Crew Coffee at JFK.
 
Not to quibble, but the industry looks far, far different that in did even in 2000, let alone in 1990.

The aircraft are better, the working conditions are better, the compensation is better. Contrary to common groupthink, there were plenty of “careerists” in the regional ranks, and they faced much lower prospects for total career compensation than they do today.

Could rest rules be better? Sure, but in the US at least, the FARs were always the baseline, and the underlying assumption is that labor agreements would build on those. That said, let me remind everyone of “reduced rest” and “legal to start, legal to finish” which were hallmarks of the pre-117 paradigm, not to mention “scheduled 135” rules, which were good up to 29 seats. 34/7, 120/mo were some of the non-awesome features of the old system.

There are also fundamental, structural difference between the US market and everywhere else.
 
Not to quibble, but the industry looks far, far different that in did even in 2000, let alone in 1990.

The aircraft are better, the working conditions are better, the compensation is better. Contrary to common groupthink, there were plenty of “careerists” in the regional ranks, and they faced much lower prospects for total career compensation than they do today.

Could rest rules be better? Sure, but in the US at least, the FARs were always the baseline, and the underlying assumption is that labor agreements would build on those. That said, let me remind everyone of “reduced rest” and “legal to start, legal to finish” which were hallmarks of the pre-117 paradigm, not to mention “scheduled 135” rules, which were good up to 29 seats. 34/7, 120/mo were some of the non-awesome features of the old system.

There are also fundamental, structural difference between the US market and everywhere else.
34 days off in a row in August/september. 20-some in a row in May. Awarded a part time line in November, hopefully turn that into 25-30 days off. How many 9-5ers can do that all in one year?

Wife says we should budget for a new oven.
“Honey, not to be arrogant, but if you want a new oven I’ll just work an extra day and boom, done.” Again, not a lot of 9-5ers can do that.
 
34 days off in a row in August/september. 20-some in a row in May. Awarded a part time line in November, hopefully turn that into 25-30 days off. How many 9-5ers can do that all in one year?

Wife says we should budget for a new oven.
“Honey, not to be arrogant, but if you want a new oven I’ll just work an extra day and boom, done.” Again, not a lot of 9-5ers can do that.
bUt tHAt iS oNLy pOSsiBle iN yOuR cOuNTrY cLuB bAsE.
 
34 days off in a row in August/september. 20-some in a row in May. Awarded a part time line in November, hopefully turn that into 25-30 days off. How many 9-5ers can do that all in one year?

Wife says we should budget for a new oven.
“Honey, not to be arrogant, but if you want a new oven I’ll just work an extra day and boom, done.” Again, not a lot of 9-5ers can do that.

Not to pile on, but I will.

I will grant the trespasses against manufacturing. But equally as bad has been the absolute destruction of the “professional class”. Not only have their earnings been wrecked by inflation, but considerably more damage has been done with stolen productivity.

I look at what my age contemporaries put up with, and I would have been like “take this job and *%^* it” a long time ago.
 
34 days off in a row in August/september. 20-some in a row in May. Awarded a part time line in November, hopefully turn that into 25-30 days off. How many 9-5ers can do that all in one year?

Wife says we should budget for a new oven.
“Honey, not to be arrogant, but if you want a new oven I’ll just work an extra day and boom, done.” Again, not a lot of 9-5ers can do that.

I'm happy for you.

Really.

(No, actually, I am!)
 
Not to quibble, but the industry looks far, far different that in did even in 2000, let alone in 1990.
The aircraft are better, the working conditions are better, the compensation is better. Contrary to common groupthink, there were plenty of “careerists” in the regional ranks, and they faced much lower prospects for total career compensation than they do today.

Could rest rules be better? Sure, but in the US at least, the FARs were always the baseline, and the underlying assumption is that labor agreements would build on those. That said, let me remind everyone of “reduced rest” and “legal to start, legal to finish” which were hallmarks of the pre-117 paradigm, not to mention “scheduled 135” rules, which were good up to 29 seats. 34/7, 120/mo were some of the non-awesome features of the old system.

There are also fundamental, structural difference between the US market and everywhere else.

To be clear, I started flying with the intention of flying professionally in 1996. I've flown under 135 scheduled rules. And while the pay is better, $180k as a regional captain is ~$96k in 2000. And the difference between those two figures is not insignificant—$180k isn't enough to buy a house in base, whereas $95k was closer.

Still, things have improved slightly, and there's no doubt that the aircraft are better.

That said:
This guy's experiences are almost identical to what I see from my point of view, except our min rest is 10 hours and maximum duty is 16 hours, extendible to 18 for reserves, not including any deadheads at the end of the day.

The point isn't that things haven't gotten better, it's that the career—in jobs where you don't somehow get 34 consecutive days off spanning two months*—is inherently harmful in its current state for pilot health. I came on here a while back stating that the job was damaging my mental and physical health, and the responses were basically "suck it up, buttercup," and talking about how the schedules I posted didn't look any worse than the normal mainline narrowbody schedules.

Well, I did "suck it up" and keep working, and my memory capacity, long- and short-term memory, hacking ability, and ability to solve cognitive puzzles is notably reduced. I've gained 30lbs since then, had to go on blood pressure medication, and look like I'm about ten years older. It turns out that running on a few hours of sleep a night, then working 14 hour days on average for long periods of time is harmful. Who coulda figured? I was told to "call out if you need to get more rest," and while I have never taken a sick day when I was fit to fly, I was getting ominous calls from the CPO talking about how many days I'd missed after legit getting sick twice.

We may not have "reduced rest," or "legal to start, legal to finish," but we have "Don't worry, we'll make it legal," and "We've removed two hours of non-movement block time from your day, so you're legal!" or "We've adjusted your report time due to this long delay," or "Nine and a half hours from the hotel lobby," or "You've been at rest for ten hours, so you're legal," or "We're converting this split-duty overnight into a local" or "Your event does not qualify for pay reimbursement and your report has been closed."

I sometimes feel like this is schrödinger's industry—depending on who you ask, and who's asking, and the time of day, and whether the pilot is in bragging mode, humble bragging mode, or complaining mode, pilots either work all the time or never work. We either get 30 hour overnights on the beach or are signing contracts with our employer where we acknowledge that the job will lead to lower life expectancy.

I don't feel like people take this stuff seriously, and I legitimately can't figure out if other pilots (outside my airline, 'cause I know the story here) are working "just as much," as some claim, or "way, way less," or if it just varies based on the travel season.

This is the first thing I've come across outside of raw anecdote that really just paints a picture that looks like what I'm seeing.

That's why I'd really like to know what others think. It sounds like you're all dismissing it because it doesn't sound like your job, and that's what I've been curious about.

Thank you for responding.

* (The longest I've had is 6 or 7 this year, and those I paid for by having a 5-on 2-off schedule the rest of the month)
 
Back
Top