Why are people so scared to declare? (SWA case)

Depending on what I’ve got going on, playing 20 questions with well-intentioned controllers may be counterproductive.

I had a bunch of electrical stuff take a poop (highly technical description for “entire emergency bus was accidentally wired to a 5 amp breaker”) on departure from a service center. Just telling departure that I’d lost a radio and needed to head back to the service center was way easier than explaining everything and declaring when all I needed from ATC was to get me turned around and sequenced back in.

I remember a group I volunteered with having an alternator go out in flight on a Cherokee. It was severe VMC and they were in the pattern. The pilot told tower he’d be a full stop and told him where they’d be parking in case the battery died before landing. That turned into tower declaring an emergency for him, fire trucks showing up, and the parents of the kids on board absolutely losing it. Completely unnecessary and avoidable. Yes, a lot of pilots are cautious about the E-word. On the flip side, “helpful” controllers who mean well frequently make things far more difficult than necessary.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Truth. If you’re an emergency things like airspace boundaries, speed limits, and several other rules disappear. If you tell me you need priority but not an emergency I’m not going to delay you but I’m not going to go crazy. If you’re an emergency and need to get down now I will send the 10 people ahead of you around, stop departures and put the center into a hold.
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I've used the "no speed limit" on a couple occasions during medical emergencies to get people on the ground more quickly. (one was a possible stroke, the other was a serious scalding incident on an FA covering a large area and the FA sounding shocky).

If you need it, use it. Not everything needs to go to 11, but if lives or long-term health are at stake, that's a situation we're there to manage.

I do really think there's a combination of factors, though. When I've had obvious emergencies, it's been easy to go "yep, we're declaring. Clear a path! I'm going home." But when it's less-obvious stuff, we know that you're going to move heaven and earth, and we don't really want to make the news. Because for every thread like this, we know there's going to be one where people are going to be ripping into somebody for declaring an emergency over something "stupid." We know that if our reasons aren't found to be valid after the fact, we may get looked at funny by our peers, or the company, or our passengers, or the media. And pilots, even airline pilots, are super mission-oriented, and we want to just keep the operation going.

But honestly, dealing with situations like that is part of the job. Build the team, gather information, work the problem, arrive at a decision, follow through, progressively evaluate.

If, at the end of the day, you were too conservative, so be it.
 
cmac88 said:
I've had plenty of situations now where I just declare for the pilot on our side.... Some of them actually seem upset by it. If it allows me or the controllers I'm with to just get you where your going as quickly as possible I will do it.
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While understandably necessary, for ATC to have to declare an emergency for a pilot/crew, is a failure on the part of that pilot/crew. Failure for them to do the “IC” part of their PIC job responsibilities. Worse, is when they get upset with ATC who is only trying to help them by having to do this part of the pilot/crew’s job for them.
 
MikeD said:
While understandably necessary, for ATC to have to declare an emergency for a pilot/crew, is a failure on the part of that pilot/crew. Failure for them to do the “IC” part of their PIC job responsibilities. Worse, is when they get upset with ATC who is only trying to help them by having to do this part of the pilot/crew’s job for them.
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I had a jet ask to return to Teterboro because the passenger forgot his wallet. Our genius supervisor decided that since it was a returnee he was going to have them roll the trucks anyway. Supervisors going to supervise. They most definitely do overreact sometimes.

Also sometimes we’ll declare an emergency because that’s what lets us break the rules. I’ve done it avoid weather before when someone decides last minute they changed their mind about flying through it and the only airspace that’s free belongs to someone else.
 
My radio work was of a different nature, and it ran a gamut. Command requested a resource and I'd move heaven and earth to get it for them, no matter how outlandish or unusual. A "Mayday," of course, trumped everything at the scene of a call whether PD, Fire or EMS.

There were a couple at work who tried to micromanage a scene and resources, but learned quickly "not on my watch' if I was the senior guy. There are enough objective examples in both emergency services and flying to suggest that erring on the side of caution is a far better thing to do than to wait too long.
 
Why? The myth of the “mountain of paperwork.”

After my “big” emergency, I did a FOIA request. The only mountain of paperwork was for the controllers who handled me.

OTOH, in one of my cases, the pilot with a flameout in Class B didn’t declare and had to deal with a claim he violated his clearance. It worked out well, but would have been a regulatory non-event if he took a few seconds to declare while trying to troubleshoot.
 
pwttogfk said:
Depending on what I’ve got going on, playing 20 questions with well-intentioned controllers may be counterproductive.

I had a bunch of electrical stuff take a poop (highly technical description for “entire emergency bus was accidentally wired to a 5 amp breaker”) on departure from a service center. Just telling departure that I’d lost a radio and needed to head back to the service center was way easier than explaining everything and declaring when all I needed from ATC was to get me turned around and sequenced back in.

I remember a group I volunteered with having an alternator go out in flight on a Cherokee. It was severe VMC and they were in the pattern. The pilot told tower he’d be a full stop and told him where they’d be parking in case the battery died before landing. That turned into tower declaring an emergency for him, fire trucks showing up, and the parents of the kids on board absolutely losing it. Completely unnecessary and avoidable. Yes, a lot of pilots are cautious about the E-word. On the flip side, “helpful” controllers who mean well frequently make things far more difficult than necessary.
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As far as airport ops go, different facilities handle emergencies differently, there should be standardization, and I thought there was, until I got to my 3rd shop. At my current shop, we roll the trucks for a flat tire that occurred on landing. We also close and stop movement on the entire airport. It is asinine. The closest thing to a standard (that I thought existed) was 3 levels of alerts. With one amounting to a cause for concern, two an imminent situation, and three being an actual crash.

When it comes to en route, I can see why a pilot may not want to answer 20 questions while they are trying to work through an emergency. ATC only needs 3 things Aircraft ID, nature of the emergency, and pilots desires. However time and resource permitting we are also supposed to ascertain souls on board and fuel remaining in time. When ATC asked Tammie Jo Shultz (SWA 1380) for those every time she switched frequencies, it was embarrassing. Go figure it is management's job to forward that information.
 
GolfChuck said:
As far as airport ops go, different facilities handle emergencies differently, there should be standardization, and I thought there was, until I got to my 3rd shop. At my current shop, we roll the trucks for a flat tire that occurred on landing. We also close and stop movement on the entire airport. It is asinine. The closest thing to a standard (that I thought existed) was 3 levels of alerts. With one amounting to a cause for concern, two an imminent situation, and three being an actual crash.
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Things should be standardized, I agree. Though airport closures for an emergency may be on a case by case basis. Single runway airport? Accident such as a gear up landing on the runway? That one is obvious. Single runway airport on a remote island in the middle of nowhere and can land aircraft on a taxiway? I’ve seen that one occur first hand.

Multi-runway airport? Separated runways that don’t intersect? Depends on the emergency if on one runway. Simple emergency? Blown tire, runway excursion, even gear up landing with no fire or injuries?. Depends on how much of the CFR resources are being utilized, and how much are available. Small airport with one fire truck, that’s now dedicated to that emergency? Airport ops may or may not want to take the risk of something else happening. 14 CFR 139 multi-runway airport with pax airline operations? Now, depending on the number of CFR trucks available and the number of those available trucks dedicated to an emergency already in progress, there’s possibly going to be restrictions on airliner ops into and out of the field, where GA airplanes would be unaffected by those regulations. All kinds of things to figure into the matrix of close the whole airport, operate the airport partially, or operate fully, during an emergency. There’s what’s legal, and what risk the airport operator is willing to accept even if it’s legal.

GolfChuck said:
When it comes to en route, I can see why a pilot may not want to answer 20 questions while they are trying to work through an emergency. ATC only needs 3 things Aircraft ID, nature of the emergency, and pilots desires. However time and resource permitting we are also supposed to ascertain souls on board and fuel remaining in time. When ATC asked Tammie Jo Shultz (SWA 1380) for those every time she switched frequencies, it was embarrassing. Go figure it is management's job to forward that information.
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That’s why one needs to be trained, when they declare an emergency, to give the answers to questions up front. My last emergency declaration was establish contact with ATC and advise declaring an emergency. ATC comes back with the standard stuff for radar ID such as a code and asks to state the nature of the emergency. It’s at this exact point I tell them what emergency I have, what my plan is to do, what I need or am requesting, souls onboard, and fuel in time. I never received any 20 questions, because of training to feed that info ahead of time so ATC can get to work is trying to help as much as they can.
 
@MikeD we are a relatively busy GA airport with a mixed fleet. No 121 ops. We have 2 ARFF vehicles and 2 FBOs and plenty of space to move aircraft on one side of the field while an emergency is tended to on the other side. There was a NOTAM about ARFF being index A (whatever that means, I am sure you do) because the big truck was OTS to be cleansed of PFAS from the older foam. I am sure it affected exactly zero primary flight planning. Maybe it excluded us an alternate to some flights, who knows?
 
pwttogfk said:
Depending on what I’ve got going on, playing 20 questions with well-intentioned controllers may be counterproductive.

I had a bunch of electrical stuff take a poop (highly technical description for “entire emergency bus was accidentally wired to a 5 amp breaker”) on departure from a service center. Just telling departure that I’d lost a radio and needed to head back to the service center was way easier than explaining everything and declaring when all I needed from ATC was to get me turned around and sequenced back in.

I remember a group I volunteered with having an alternator go out in flight on a Cherokee. It was severe VMC and they were in the pattern. The pilot told tower he’d be a full stop and told him where they’d be parking in case the battery died before landing. That turned into tower declaring an emergency for him, fire trucks showing up, and the parents of the kids on board absolutely losing it. Completely unnecessary and avoidable. Yes, a lot of pilots are cautious about the E-word. On the flip side, “helpful” controllers who mean well frequently make things far more difficult than necessary.
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I had an alternator fail in a Cherokee flying from San Jose to Burbank. I was VFR with a million and clear and was with flight following. I suggested to the controller that I had an electrical issue and I'd be landing ASAP (there was a smell of burning rubber in the cockpit) and they asked me at least a couple of times if I wanted to declare an emergency. I just said I was canceling flight following and my VFR flight plan because I was going to Paso Robles immediately. Turns out they were having a Young Eagles day at Paso Robles and my unexpected arrival after dropping down from 8500' in the biggest slip I've ever done into the pattern wasn't how they imagined their morning progressing. They were pissed and let me know about it on CTAF. Should I have declared? There was the smell of something getting hot but there wasn't any smoke, I knew our trip was going to be disrupted regardless and I'm not sure it would've helped in any fashion if I had said "Oh My God The Airplane Is on Fire!!". I made an admittedly aggressive pattern entry and landed and no one got hurt, except the alternator belt, it'd been installed incorrectly and it was toast. In my particular situation I don't think declaring an emergency would've done me any good, all of those old farts giving rides weren't listening any ways, I think they were using another frequency to coordinate their operation.
 
NovemberEcho said:
If you’re already talking to ATC (in the US anyway) the only reason you should squawk 7700 is because you can’t get a word in to declare your emergency. If you’re already talking, have a squawk code etc, please don’t change to 7700. If you’re putzing around VFR on a 1200 code and have an emergency, then squawk 7700 because we’ll immediately know who you are.
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This sounds made up. Are you sure?
 
Kingairer said:
Perhaps the FO was enjoying his "upgrade" and didnt want it to end so quickly. :)

Clearly this would be a declare situation. I wonder if the captain was dictating some of this, and perhaps slight embarrassment played into it.
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I’d bet this is the case. I could totally see a pilot not wanting to make it a big deal and waiving off any sort of “emergency” talk.
 
juxtapilot said:
I’d bet this is the case. I could totally see a pilot not wanting to make it a big deal and waiving off any sort of “emergency” talk.
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A long time ago, I was preflighting the E145, for some reason I don't recall, I wanted to walk back to the other side to see something, but rather than walk around, I walked under. I stood up too quickly and caught an antenna of some sort, and it sliced through my shirt and back. Hurt like hell, but I of course said it didn't even though I was walking around with a sliced open shirt with blood on it like a Halloween actor."doesnt hurt at all"! :)
 
NovemberEcho said:
Yes. If you’re already talking to me, squawking 7700 accomplishes nothing except various alarms going off at every scope in every facility within range.
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I was doing a tower visit at RHV and an aircraft on the edge of the (then) ATA squawked 7700.

I asked the controller “So what happens now?”

“Uhh, nothing really. I’m not talking to him”

“Isn’t he in your airspace”

“Yup”. Keys Mic: “Cessna 123AB runway 31R cleared for the option”
 
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