Why are people so scared to declare? (SWA case)

Cherokee_Cruiser

Cherokee_Cruiser

Bronteroc
You takeoff Vegas.




You want to return to Vegas, now.





And you want “medical priority.”




But…. WON’T declare.




Someone make it make sense.





And that’s got to be a bad boo-boo with a HUD hitting you in the head.






View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/W0MbmijA8m8






How much paperwork is required at your shops if you declare?


Ours is a nothing burger. One quick irregularity report and 99.5% of the time you won’t hear anything back. Cost to declare: $0. You’re already going back. That diversion cost exists regardless.


Needing “priority” anything involving an air return back to base is probably an excellent reason to declare.


Thoughts? WWYD?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
You takeoff Vegas.




You want to return to Vegas, now.





And you want “medical priority.”




But…. WON’T declare.




Someone make it make sense.





And that’s got to be a bad boo-boo with a HUD hitting you in the head.






View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/W0MbmijA8m8






How much paperwork is required at your shops if you declare?


Ours is a nothing burger. One quick irregularity report and 99.5% of the time you won’t hear anything back. Cost to declare: $0. You’re already going back. That diversion cost exists regardless.


Needing “priority” anything involving an air return back to base is probably an excellent reason to declare.


Thoughts? WWYD?
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Weren’t you the one on here questioning United declaring during the LGA crash? Why do you always come in here second guessing your peers? Just worry about your own shop and your own cockpit.
 
nc1982 said:
Weren’t you the one on here questioning United declaring during the LGA crash? Why do you always come in here second guessing your peers? Just worry about your own shop and your own cockpit.
Click to expand...

Delcaring an emergency on the ground just to get an open gate, is probably the opposite end of the spectrum.



Shutting down conversations is how we don’t learn from others in this industry.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
You takeoff Vegas.




You want to return to Vegas, now.





And you want “medical priority.”




But…. WON’T declare.




Someone make it make sense.





And that’s got to be a bad boo-boo with a HUD hitting you in the head.






View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/W0MbmijA8m8






How much paperwork is required at your shops if you declare?


Ours is a nothing burger. One quick irregularity report and 99.5% of the time you won’t hear anything back. Cost to declare: $0. You’re already going back. That diversion cost exists regardless.


Needing “priority” anything involving an air return back to base is probably an excellent reason to declare.


Thoughts? WWYD?
Click to expand...

Thought the same thing. Captain incapacited and you’re not gonna declare? Duh phuck? 🤦‍♂️
 
Before this gets over the top with poo flinging, I read an article in one of those safety magazines(might have been the Airbus one, not sure). It brought up this particular topic. They interviewed something like 100 airline pilots from the US and Europe and the biggest factor in why pilots don’t declare an emergency is ego/pride. It summarized that if you declare you feel as if you are no longer in control.
 
Soul Brotha' said:
Before this gets over the top with poo flinging, I read an article in one of those safety magazines(might have been the Airbus one, not sure). It brought up this particular topic. They interviewed something like 100 airline pilots from the US and Europe and the biggest factor in why pilots don’t declare an emergency is ego/pride. It summarized that if you declare you feel as if you are no longer in control.
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I mean the scrutiny these days of declaring and squawking 7700 is instantaneous. So many people on the internet watching planes squawking 7700. If you need to declare, declare. In the air or on the ground. You got fumes in the cabin and can’t get a gate, declare. You have an incapacitated pilot, declare.
 
nc1982 said:
I mean the scrutiny these days of declaring and squawking 7700 is instantaneous. So many people on the internet watching planes squawking 7700. If you need to declare, declare. In the air or on the ground. You got fumes in the cabin and can’t get a gate, declare. You have an incapacitated pilot, declare.
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No one should let internet YouTube bro crowd influence their decision to declare. Besides if it’s an immediate return, just say unable to squawk 7700. We verbally declare with you and we are landing now.
 
There’s a big category of stuff that I won’t declare for if I’m getting EVERYTHING I ask for.

Or, will declare close to destination for priority, EMS, etc.
 
juxtapilot said:
Declare close to destination? So, give them less time to prepare for whatever you need?
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(I meant to type “closer” instead of “close”.)

Obviously, as my post describes, not all emergencies are the same. If I have a dead pax on board, I don’t need to use that in my initial call to get turned around. There might be better ways to communicate that stuff.

I thought it was obvious but I’ll mention that I’ll give destination fire and EMS adequate time to prepare for an emergency.

There’s been cases where some mx justifies returning but there’s not a real emergency. If you lose glass and you’re flying using steam gauges, is that an emergency? Depends on the plane, depends on the pilot, depends on company rules.

I’m never gonna second guess anybody but I’ve raised an eyebrow over a few “emergencies” over the years.
 
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Soul Brotha' said:
Before this gets over the top with poo flinging, I read an article in one of those safety magazines(might have been the Airbus one, not sure). It brought up this particular topic. They interviewed something like 100 airline pilots from the US and Europe and the biggest factor in why pilots don’t declare an emergency is ego/pride. It summarized that if you declare you feel as if you are no longer in control.
Click to expand...

Want to know the irony of this? By declaring an emergency, a pilot/crew is actually more in control than they were before, because they now have the entirety of the ATC system prioritizing them. These pilots who feel the way you cite above, their egos won’t let them realize this fact.

There’s an old saying in aviation: Ego is what gets us into trouble. Pride is what keeps us there.

And this concept still has never changed.
 
MikeD said:
Want to know the irony of this? By declaring an emergency, a pilot/crew is actually more in control than they were before, because they now have the entirety of the ATC system prioritizing them. These pilots who feel the way you cite above, their egos won’t let them realize this fact.

There’s an old saying in aviation: Ego is what gets us into trouble. Pride is what keeps us there.

And this concept still has never changed.
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Well put.
My first thought exactly was “If i declare, I am MORE in control”. Right or wrong, I will have more resources, priority, attention and a blank check to do what needs be done. Granted that comes with a crap ton of responsibility and accountability, but thats the job….Never understood the hesitation, whether mechanical or medical, its at worst a couple pieces of paper and you get to earn your stripes for the night.
 
Boots2Wings said:
Well put.
My first thought exactly was “If i declare, I am MORE in control”. Right or wrong, I will have more resources, priority, attention and a blank check to do what needs be done. Granted that comes with a crap ton of responsibility and accountability, but thats the job….Never understood the hesitation, whether mechanical or medical, its at worst a couple pieces of paper and you get to earn your stripes for the night.
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A bit of paperwork I’m sure, if only to detail what the circumstances were for record purposes. Yet I’ve run into some pilots that think the paperwork narrative is some kind of punitive gotcha that’s going to earn them some kind of violation or something.
 
If I had to make an uneducated guess I'd say most pilots don't want to bring attention to themselves. In out FOM at Brown some things automatically require an event report as they did at Endeavor. I'm at the "chicken out" stage of my career and probably life. If we have an issue like this personally I'm declaring. Have everyone come out, hell the pope if you can get him.

I think systemically there's a misunderstanding of the system in general when it comes to tools to use. I've read about instances where guys should have done an ASAP but didn't because they didn't think it fit the bill or a more popular reason; "I thought ASAP's were just to cover my a**". They shouldn't be used when you're having a labor issue (I think some need to hear this) but a legitimate safety issue or concern definitely.

@Soul Brotha' mentioned pilot ego's and I can see this being a reason. It's like pilots having an experience which is traumatic but a lot of us don't think we need help or to talk to anyone and just show up for work like everything is fine. I think as a whole we need to understand that its ok to ask for help. Whether its in the moment with an incapacitated crew member or after experiencing a traumatic event at our airline/Air Line.
 
Perhaps the FO was enjoying his "upgrade" and didnt want it to end so quickly. :)

Clearly this would be a declare situation. I wonder if the captain was dictating some of this, and perhaps slight embarrassment played into it.
 
nc1982 said:
I mean the scrutiny these days of declaring and squawking 7700 is instantaneous. So many people on the internet watching planes squawking 7700. If you need to declare, declare. In the air or on the ground. You got fumes in the cabin and can’t get a gate, declare. You have an incapacitated pilot, declare.
Click to expand...

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
No one should let internet YouTube bro crowd influence their decision to declare. Besides if it’s an immediate return, just say unable to squawk 7700. We verbally declare with you and we are landing now.
Click to expand...

If you’re already talking to ATC (in the US anyway) the only reason you should squawk 7700 is because you can’t get a word in to declare your emergency. If you’re already talking, have a squawk code etc, please don’t change to 7700. If you’re putzing around VFR on a 1200 code and have an emergency, then squawk 7700 because we’ll immediately know who you are.
 
MikeD said:
Want to know the irony of this? By declaring an emergency, a pilot/crew is actually more in control than they were before, because they now have the entirety of the ATC system prioritizing them. These pilots who feel the way you cite above, their egos won’t let them realize this fact.

There’s an old saying in aviation: Ego is what gets us into trouble. Pride is what keeps us there.

And this concept still has never changed.
Click to expand...

Truth. If you’re an emergency things like airspace boundaries, speed limits, and several other rules disappear. If you tell me you need priority but not an emergency I’m not going to delay you but I’m not going to go crazy. If you’re an emergency and need to get down now I will send the 10 people ahead of you around, stop departures and put the center into a hold.
 
I've had plenty of situations now where I just declare for the pilot on our side.... Some of them actually seem upset by it. If it allows me or the controllers I'm with to just get you where your going as quickly as possible I will do it. I had one that was getting a gear indicator light and needed to do a tower flyby and still didn't want to declare..... We recently got something about everybody is supposed to be using pan, pan or mayday to be more compliant with ICAO... Maybe that'll actually help since they can say pan, pan without feeling like they are sounding some major alarm.
 
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