Bangor Maine - private jet w/8 crash
- Thread starter Malko
- Start date
Skåning
Well-Known Member
Wait. You were at ATN and JBU also?!
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Zap. 9/11 and lost decade. He’s worked at every place that has the word “Air” in it, and some of those may have been air conditioning companies. 
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
Wrote one. Not gonna try to publish until I retire... statute of limitations on airplane stories...
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
“The story you are about to see is true. The names have been changed to protect the innocent.”
ahw01
Well-Known Member
Dun Dun
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
No, no, that's "DAAAAAA DA DA DA...DAAAAAA DA DA DA DAAAA"
ahw01
Well-Known Member
Perry Mason?
Karnage
I-am-a-pirate. I do not need credentials!
I love both!
Jack Webb’s character is almost the exact vibe @MikeD had during college and him and my other roommate would go at it.
“Jopie, so you got drunk, slept with a townie and Jenna won’t talk to you anymore… Tell me more”
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Preliminary report is out.
METAR reported light snow. Visibility adjusted for type 4 was moderate. According to the table they had 2-9 minutes for moderate 9-30 for light. They took 17.
Honest question, why does the METAR give one rating for the snow intensity but the holdover tables give another? It seems like this misalignment is a slice of swiss cheese that doesn't even exist in the Swiss cheese model. I know if I was on this RC/CA investigation where I work, fixing that so the METAR reported intensity aligned to the HOT table would have already been changed, and we don't do anything that quick.
Saying "that's just the way it is and pilots know that" would probably get me fired.
METAR reported light snow. Visibility adjusted for type 4 was moderate. According to the table they had 2-9 minutes for moderate 9-30 for light. They took 17.
Honest question, why does the METAR give one rating for the snow intensity but the holdover tables give another? It seems like this misalignment is a slice of swiss cheese that doesn't even exist in the Swiss cheese model. I know if I was on this RC/CA investigation where I work, fixing that so the METAR reported intensity aligned to the HOT table would have already been changed, and we don't do anything that quick.
Saying "that's just the way it is and pilots know that" would probably get me fired.
an interesting and related read.
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
I wonder if they did a visual inspection just in case? We may never know, but in a biz jet I'd venture it's a darn easy thing to do especially if you even halfway are questioning your holdover time.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
They say the CVR transcript will be released, but this is what the prelim said about the crew's interaction about the holdover over time:
According to a preliminary review of the cockpit voice recorder (CVR), the flight crew
discussed holdover times during the taxi to runway 33. The pilot commented that it was
“standard” to have 14-18 minutes and that if the wait was more than 30 minutes, they would
return to the ramp to deice again. The copilot concurred with the pilot.
I think the lack of further detail is damning on the crew in this instance, but the upper end of the light snow was 30 minutes, so i can see that the crew thought they had 30 based on the METAR. But I guess we'll know what exactly was done and said in a year.
According to a preliminary review of the cockpit voice recorder (CVR), the flight crew
discussed holdover times during the taxi to runway 33. The pilot commented that it was
“standard” to have 14-18 minutes and that if the wait was more than 30 minutes, they would
return to the ramp to deice again. The copilot concurred with the pilot.
I think the lack of further detail is damning on the crew in this instance, but the upper end of the light snow was 30 minutes, so i can see that the crew thought they had 30 based on the METAR. But I guess we'll know what exactly was done and said in a year.
I’m curious about the AFM wording. If they were 91 and not operating under an approved deice program, that’s it for guidance. In the NearJet we have to do a tactile inspection within 5 minutes of departure in active ground icing conditions and have a statement specifically saying that HOTs are advisory only. With the Challenger’s history of icing accidents I’d be very surprised if they didn’t have some similar requirement.
KLB
Well-Known Member
The 5 minute tactile check is actually written in some operators' GOM's. And that's "tactile" as physically touching the surface along with viewing it for possible deice deterioration. The only way to have it properly done in accordance to the GOM is to do ot quickly at the hold short line and likely with engines running. It also had to be done by the flight crews and not by the deice crew like with the airlines.
We have a big upper case CAUTION:
TABLES ARE FOR USE IN DEPARTURE PLANNING ONLY AND THEY
SHOULD BE USED IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE PRETAKEOFF
CONTAMINATION CHECK PROCEDURES.
I also think there’s a higher level of risk in conditions like these for 91 operators like myself just because of how little we do these procedures. Airline guys use deice all the time because the show must go on and I go winters where I won’t need it once. A heated hangar and a slight change of ETD are far more effective than the best brand of fluid. Yeah, we do the FSI online cold weather ops course each season but…there’s no substitute for experience.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Is where having LWE helps? Live, not based on fixed assumptions of weather. I’d have to check if BGR has it.
Our shop just turned on the LWE function of SureWX. I checked for Denver where it was snowing, and it was cool. Every refresh updates the Type I and IV holdover time. No min-max windows. Actual fixed value based on the LWE live data feed. It has one time for Type I and one for Type 4. Our new procedure is to update within 5 minutes of takeoff and compare the newest holdover fixed value time to see if exceeded.
Nice improvement!
Our shop just turned on the LWE function of SureWX. I checked for Denver where it was snowing, and it was cool. Every refresh updates the Type I and IV holdover time. No min-max windows. Actual fixed value based on the LWE live data feed. It has one time for Type I and one for Type 4. Our new procedure is to update within 5 minutes of takeoff and compare the newest holdover fixed value time to see if exceeded.
Nice improvement!