Unlimited class pulling out of Reno/Roswell Air Races

[Pilot Fighter]

I don't know if you saw what Red Bull was proposing when they wanted to try and join forces with RARA, but it was nothing like what the RBAR ended up being.

Their "demo race" in 2003 was pretty much an aerobatic routine time trial that ran through two inflatable gates. It had none of the elements that took years afterward to get fleshed out to make it into what people now think of when they think "Red Bull Air Races."

After their demo at Reno, it was a combination of spectators looking at each other asking "WTF did we just see?" and air race crews laughing at it.

It is no surprise RARA wasn't interested in it.

Yeah, nothing impressive about that. I was talking about overtures for primary sponsorship.

 

[Hacker15e]

Yeah, nothing impressive about that. I was talking about overtures for primary sponsorship.

Based on what I heard from friends who were representatives from the T-6 and Unlimited classes and were involved with the situation, Red Bull wasn't interested in "sponsoring" anything beyond hitching their carriage to RARA's horse without really bringing much to the table at the time.

Obviously RBAR went on to develop, promote, and execute their own very interesting series of events without the assistance of RARA, but I doubt that any association or partnership with RARA at the time would have yielded anything beneficial to both parties. The motivations and interests of both parties and their spectator base were just too divergent. Interesting to note that of the two events, RBAR ran it's course first, and on a substantially shorter timeline.

Been going to Reno since I was a kid in the early 80s (with my dad, brother, and I having all been long-time spectators, crew members, pylon press members, etc.). IMO the apex of Reno was somewhere in the 1988 to 1991 timeframe. and has been on a slow incremental slide since then as the value of the unlimited racers skyrocketed and prize money slowly faded.

Even as late as the early '00s, it was still possible for an average dude to go out in the Biplane or F1 class, run in the Bronze class, and basically make the week pay for itself with the "average finisher" prize money. I crewed a Biplane class racer one year during that timeframe and was keeping tabs on the math to do it myself, and was in the purchase hunt for an S-1T to try and make it work. Alas, though, no more. Although there are lots of "everyman" racers in the Biplanes, F1, and Sport, all of those guys are footing the bill out of pocket.

There have certainly been bright spots on the downhill slide, and even an ember of new interest as Sport class has gained speed and spectatorship, but this is the inevitable termination leg of this particular journey.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Based on what I heard from friends who were representatives from the T-6 and Unlimited classes and were involved with the situation, Red Bull wasn't interested in "sponsoring" anything beyond hitching their carriage to RARA's horse without really bringing much to the table at the time.

Obviously RBAR went on to develop, promote, and execute their own very interesting series of events without the assistance of RARA, but I doubt that any association or partnership with RARA at the time would have yielded anything beneficial to both parties. The motivations and interests of both parties and their spectator base were just too divergent. Interesting to note that of the two events, RBAR ran it's course first, and on a substantially shorter timeline.

Been going to Reno since I was a kid in the early 80s (with my dad, brother, and I having all been long-time spectators, crew members, pylon press members, etc.). IMO the apex of Reno was somewhere in the 1988 to 1991 timeframe. and has been on a slow incremental slide since then as the value of the unlimited racers skyrocketed and prize money slowly faded.

Even as late as the early '00s, it was still possible for an average dude to go out in the Biplane or F1 class, run in the Bronze class, and basically make the week pay for itself with the "average finisher" prize money. I crewed a Biplane class racer one year during that timeframe and was keeping tabs on the math to do it myself, and was in the purchase hunt for an S-1T to try and make it work. Alas, though, no more. Although there are lots of "everyman" racers in the Biplanes, F1, and Sport, all of those guys are footing the bill out of pocket.

There have certainly been bright spots on the downhill slide, and even an ember of new interest as Sport class has gained speed and spectatorship, but this is the inevitable termination leg of this particular journey.

Interesting insights.

I only got one side of the story from some Red Bull marketing guys looking at Saudi Arabia for Red Bull events. We provided transport to a few possible race locations.

It’s my sense that there’s the economics of fielding a plane and the economics and politics of fielding the event.

Other than the Unlimited Class, you don’t have to be rich to field a plane. I know somebody that has raced in the sport class and somebody that has raced in the jet class. One successful but not rich, the other successful and rich.

My comments have been pretty consistent on the subject. The event has become more and more difficult - logistics, finances, regulation, and politics. At a certain point, there wasn’t enough thrust-to-weight to solve these issues.

My explanation was that it wasn’t a good spectator event, live or broadcast. For decades, this want a dealbreaker. Eventually, it was.

 

[knot4u]

Interesting insights.

I only got one side of the story from some Red Bull marketing guys looking at Saudi Arabia for Red Bull events. We provided transport to a few possible race locations.

It’s my sense that there’s the economics of fielding a plane and the economics and politics of fielding the event.

Other than the Unlimited Class, you don’t have to be rich to field a plane. I know somebody that has raced in the sport class and somebody that has raced in the jet class. One successful but not rich, the other successful and rich.

My comments have been pretty consistent on the subject. The event has become more and more difficult - logistics, finances, regulation, and politics. At a certain point, there wasn’t enough thrust-to-weight to solve these issues.

My explanation was that it wasn’t a good spectator event, live or broadcast. For decades, this want a dealbreaker. Eventually, it was.

Maybe air racing is just dead? I respect the sport and jet classes but it just isn’t the same. The Unlimiteds have always been the biggest draw and without them it might just slowly fade away.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Maybe air racing is just dead? I respect the sport and jet classes but it just isn’t the same. The Unlimiteds have always been the biggest draw and without them it might just slowly fade away.

All it takes is one billionaire to make it happen. I could certainly see it happen in the Middle East.

 

[knot4u]

All it takes is one billionaire to make it happen. I could certainly see it happen in the Middle East.

Maybe. A couple of American billionaires have tried at at Reno and despite the fact that they never planned to profit they stopped, it was more of a hobby rather than a business, they found the experience distasteful enough to just stop participating. One of them amassed a fleet of some (not all) of the fastest race airplanes to ever round those pylons. And now they just sit in a hangar somewhere collecting dust. I guess the thing that made the Unlimited class at Reno special back in the '80s and '90s was the fact that most of the teams were on a fairly level playing field and no one had an unlimited budget. I'm sure some Saudi could get a boner for piston powered airplanes and build an entire fleet of disparate looking air racers and it would lack the primary reason why the Unlimiteds were so popular at Reno. It was just normal folks doing extraordinary things not because they were being paid, it was because they loved doing it. At least that's my perspective and I was elbows and shoulders deep into it sometimes.

 

[knot4u]

All it takes is one billionaire to make it happen. I could certainly see it happen in the Middle East.

I should also say that I had a conversation with one of our regular contributors and he reminded me that every white hat hero needs an equally capable adversary for the story to fit into the epic novel or Hollywood movie format. Right now Steve Hinton Jr is the white hat, he has all of the credentials, he was born into an air racing family (look up Steve Hinton Sr) and that's what he's always known. Working on warbirds and their engines. He took his date to the prom in a P-51. He earned his way into a seat in Strega by actually working on the airplane and then he was literally "Off to the races!". He's not a military pilot or an airline pilot, I believe he still makes a living as an A/P. If you're a fan of air racing look up Steve-o and his lines around the course at Reno, it's surgical.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6qq6u6K9-Q

 

[///AMG]

I don't know if you saw what Red Bull was proposing when they wanted to try and join forces with RARA, but it was nothing like what the RBAR ended up being.

Their "demo race" in 2003 was pretty much an aerobatic routine time trial that ran through two inflatable gates. It had none of the elements that took years afterward to get fleshed out to make it into what people now think of when they think "Red Bull Air Races."

After their demo at Reno, it was a combination of spectators looking at each other asking "WTF did we just see?" and air race crews laughing at it.

It is no surprise RARA wasn't interested in it.

This is magical. Hows Hansel doing? I saw him at hook but forgot to ask him if he's still dipping his toes in any warbirding

 

[Hacker15e]

Other than the Unlimited Class, you don’t have to be rich to field a plane. I know somebody that has raced in the sport class and somebody that has raced in the jet class. One successful but not rich, the other successful and rich.

I was talking specifically about the ability to take a racer to Reno, and have the cost of the endeavor paid for by the prize money you'd win.

 

[bp]

This is magical. Hows Hansel doing? I saw him at hook but forgot to ask him if he's still dipping his toes in any warbirding

small world.. hopefully he’s more gentle with warbirds than he is with smaller GA airplanes

 

[bp]

I was talking specifically about the ability to take a racer to Reno, and have the cost of the endeavor paid for by the prize money you'd win.

this is kind of sport class’ effort, cost recovery as “airshow performers” is paramount to make it sustainable. where we’re at right now with our own event is pretty significant cost recovery, but insurance is the next bite of the apple. one race doubles my entire annual policy if I want hull coverage. I know several racers that waive and only purchase liability insurance for the event

 

[///AMG]

small world.. hopefully he’s more gentle with warbirds than he is with smaller GA airplanes

Haha you talking about a float plane specifically? Or is this a different story?

I appreciate that dude. He flies probably every day of his life. His enthusiasm for being in an airplane is a level I will never reach. But I respect it

 

[bp]

Haha you talking about a float plane specifically? Or is this a different story?

I appreciate that dude. He flies probably every day of his life. His enthusiasm for being in an airplane is a level I will never reach. But I respect it

hah no different airplane- think I only met him once but his handiwork was in the back of a mutual friends hangar for a good amt of the covid era

 

[Pilot Fighter]

I was talking specifically about the ability to take a racer to Reno, and have the cost of the endeavor paid for by the prize money you'd win.

There was a time decades ago when horse trainers just worked off a percentage of the purse. Now, they get a day-rate and other fees.

Since there’s not a racing circuit, I don’t think anybody is going to count on the purse to make the numbers work. It seems appearance money or purse based on qualifying at a certain threshold would help the more modest efforts.

 

[knot4u]

I've been lucky enough to rub shoulders with some of most prominent modern era unlimited pilots, owners and crew members that took that particular class of air racing from the low to mid 400s to breaking the 500 mph barrier, I'm not talking about 3K record attempts I'm talking about an average speed of 500mph on the course at Reno. We almost did it with the Bearcat, I think the fastest we ever went on the course when I worked on it was 491mph. There was a group of strong thinkers amongst these folks that elevated these airplanes to these seemingly insurmountable speeds and one was a guy named Dave Cornell. He helped the Rare Bear transform from a '60/'70s unlimited racer to what ended up being the second golden age of gold unlimited air racing in the late '80s and early '90s with the battles between Rare Bear, Strega, Dreadnought and to some extent Tsunami. It only lasted for a few years but it was awesome. So I knew Dave from not only the bearcat but also from the prop shop I used to work at (at one point in time if your OV-10 prop governor didn't come from Cherry Point I overhauled it and tested it on a bench engineered and built by Dave). Before the movie Crimson Tide came out I knew I wanted a Jack Russel as a dog and Dave overheard me saying it and mentioned his sister bred high end Jack Russels and that's how I ended up with the best dog ever. Dave and Lyle (the owner of the Rare Bear) had gotten their wires crossed before I ever met either of them and let's just say they weren't fond of each other but Dave and I got along so one day he invited me to his house in the SFV and after passing muster with two enormous Rhodesian Ridgebacks and his wife Bonnie (I'd actually had lunch with her and Dave so I wasn't a complete stranger), we walked into his backyard. Most folks think the valley is just apartment buildings stacked on warehouses and that may be where it's headed but to this day there are "large" lots (1-2 acres) all over the place. Dave had built a hangar/barn in his backyard and inside was his answer to the big numbers for unlimited air racers. It was a mix of a T-2 Buckeye fuselage, an F-86 tail and I can't recall what wing he had but it was a real (half finished) airplane right in front of me. I was flummoxed by the fact he wanted it to have a nose wheel holding up a 3350 (he helped the bearcat perfect that engine for air racing including the slow nose case) and then he showed me the coup de grace, an ejection seat. I said that's fine for the pilot but this isn't combat and where is that airplane going once left to it's own devices? A few years later Lyle died and Dave started working on Rare Bear for the new owner. Now Dave has passed, the three blade prop will never run again and the bearcat sits in some hangar somewhere in Texas and will likely never push the power up in honest competition ever again. Funny thing is although we had a bunch of nitrous on board we rarely used it, everyone got played by the theatrics of loading it, it would certainly work if needed but most of the time it wasn't needed.
View attachment 85051

I happened upon a picture of this airplane as I remember it in person in Daves barn...