Mr Toad’s wild ride

Wardogg said:
Bravo Zulu to this guy! Sounds like he had his hands full. I have some serious questions/concerns about some of the ATC comms here. Help me @NovemberEcho, you’re my only hope.


View: https://youtu.be/T9Sh4uNYKvc?si=vJhKcviRi52mI7t1
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What are your concerns? This showed comms from at least 3 different facilities simultaneously (FXE tower, Miami approach, and Miami tower). When you got an emergency like this where he’s flying erratically (for whatever reason) and is unable to communicate clearly you can’t really coordinate very well because you don’t know what they’re going to do and you may not be the one talking to them so you only know what someone else told you which could simply be “this dude is having flight control issues”. Miami approach kept people on the final but on their freq to be able to respond to any move the emergency made and reacted accordingly. Idk anything about their airspace or operation to really give any accurate comment on why they did or didn’t do most things though.
 
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NovemberEcho said:
What are your concerns? This showed comms from at least 3 different facilities simultaneously (FXE tower, Miami approach, and Miami tower). When you got an emergency like this where he’s flying erratically (for whatever reason) and is unable to communicate clearly you can’t really coordinate very well because you don’t know what they’re going to do and you may not be the one talking to them so you only know what someone else told you which could simply be “this dude is having flight control issues”. Miami approach kept people on the final but on their freq to be able to respond to any move the emergency made and reacted accordingly. Idk anything about their airspace or operation to really give any accurate comment on why they did or didn’t do most things though.
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Calling out traffic instead of moving said traffic mainly. This was a pretty severe case of my airplane is doing things I cant control. And should have been evident when he showed up to the other airport not talking to the proper controllers and couldn’t get himself lined up on the first pass. At that point shouldn’t anything and everything be moved out of his way? That FXE controller understood the gravity of the situation. But the others just seemed to treat him like some dum dum pilot that didn’t know where he was.
 
Wardogg said:
Calling out traffic instead of moving said traffic mainly
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The person calling out the Southwest wasn’t the person talking to southwest. The person talking to Southwest told Southwest they weren’t sure what the nature of the emergency was (why that is I don’t know as they should have been informed). Due to the split in who was talking to who, (and frequency changes for the emergency were probably limited not to distract them) they might have felt it was safer not to make a turn when possibly that turn could have just created new problems. VASA usually doesn’t display all the traffic in the area (just the ones talking) so I don’t know what else if anything was around.
 
NovemberEcho said:
The person calling out the Southwest wasn’t the person talking to southwest. The person talking to Southwest told Southwest they weren’t sure what the nature of the emergency was (why that is I don’t know as they should have been informed). Due to the split in who was talking to who, (and frequency changes for the emergency were probably limited not to distract them) they might have felt it was safer not to make a turn when possibly that turn could have just created new problems. VASA usually doesn’t display all the traffic in the area (just the ones talking) so I don’t know what else if anything was around.
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I’ll have to give it a second listen.
 
These things do not happen in a perfect world. Executive tower were the only ones who should've known how serious it was from the grunting and such by the pilot. There are 3 primary facilities involved. FXE tower, MIA and FLL tower. The second FXE realized how serious it was and he mentions heading to FLL it should've been an immediate call to FLL tower to stop everything. That would've triggered the call to MIA to stop the train. The plane shouldn't have ended up on MIA's freq at all imo. FXE should've kept them and coordinated with FLL that he was coming in and to clear everything out.

That is a lot of human to human coordination in a short period of time so not surprised it obviously didn't go well. I can guarantee you, had the approach controller understood the situation fully, everyone would've been going around. You would hope a competent supervisor/CIC would've taken the reins on the communication and ensured that's what happened. Luckily for all it ended well. Had he crashed after turning back out initially ATC would've had some blame for sure. Just the harsh reality.These situations are tough and you never know how you'll react but I've always tried to instill that when a pilot wants to get back on the ground, they are the only priority. It is something that is more easily understood by controllers that have at least some time in a plane.
 
cmac88 said:
These things do not happen in a perfect world. Executive tower were the only ones who should've known how serious it was from the grunting and such by the pilot. There are 3 primary facilities involved. FXE tower, MIA and FLL tower. The second FXE realized how serious it was and he mentions heading to FLL it should've been an immediate call to FLL tower to stop everything. That would've triggered the call to MIA to stop the train. The plane shouldn't have ended up on MIA's freq at all imo. FXE should've kept them and coordinated with FLL that he was coming in and to clear everything out.

That is a lot of human to human coordination in a short period of time so not surprised it obviously didn't go well. I can guarantee you, had the approach controller understood the situation fully, everyone would've been going around. You would hope a competent supervisor/CIC would've taken the reins on the communication and ensured that's what happened. Luckily for all it ended well. Had he crashed after turning back out initially ATC would've had some blame for sure. Just the harsh reality.These situations are tough and you never know how you'll react but I've always tried to instill that when a pilot wants to get back on the ground, they are the only priority. It is something that is more easily understood by controllers that have at least some time in a plane.
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That's a lot of words when you could just blame DEI.

:sarcasm:
 
cmac88 said:
These things do not happen in a perfect world. Executive tower were the only ones who should've known how serious it was from the grunting and such by the pilot. There are 3 primary facilities involved. FXE tower, MIA and FLL tower. The second FXE realized how serious it was and he mentions heading to FLL it should've been an immediate call to FLL tower to stop everything. That would've triggered the call to MIA to stop the train. The plane shouldn't have ended up on MIA's freq at all imo. FXE should've kept them and coordinated with FLL that he was coming in and to clear everything out.

That is a lot of human to human coordination in a short period of time so not surprised it obviously didn't go well. I can guarantee you, had the approach controller understood the situation fully, everyone would've been going around. You would hope a competent supervisor/CIC would've taken the reins on the communication and ensured that's what happened. Luckily for all it ended well. Had he crashed after turning back out initially ATC would've had some blame for sure. Just the harsh reality.These situations are tough and you never know how you'll react but I've always tried to instill that when a pilot wants to get back on the ground, they are the only priority. It is something that is more easily understood by controllers that have at least some time in a plane.
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Thanks for this write up. There’s so many great Archie League Award radar/audio replays for emergencies where everything goes perfectly, and I’m always amazed by how busy the landline coordination can be when the frequency is quiet. But we (understandably) don’t really get to see behind the curtain when things don’t go as they were supposed to in these situations. I hope the controllers involved get an opportunity to review what went well and what didn’t and take away those lessons learned for the next one.
 
Wardogg said:
Bravo Zulu to this guy! Sounds like he had his hands full. I have some serious questions/concerns about some of the ATC comms here. Help me @NovemberEcho, you’re my only hope.


View: https://youtu.be/T9Sh4uNYKvc?si=vJhKcviRi52mI7t1
Click to expand...


Thanks for the share. Hot damn, that was scary. I’m curious why they just didn’t give the aircraft the “any runway, any direction, cleared to land” and then scattering the other aircraft.

I just don’t remember Captain Haynes being called out traffic.
 
Well, that was the most intense thing I've listened to in a little while... jesus that sounded harrowing.

God I wonder if his controls were mis-rigged...
 
derg said:
Thanks for the share. Hot damn, that was scary. I’m curious why they just didn’t give the aircraft the “any runway, any direction, cleared to land” and then scattering the other aircraft.

I just don’t remember Captain Haynes being called out traffic.
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VAS videos didn't exist back then.
 
ppragman said:
Well, that was the most intense thing I've listened to in a little while... jesus that sounded harrowing.

God I wonder if his controls were mis-rigged...
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So the 560 has a weird elevator. It take a big ol’ hoark of a pull to get yourself off the ground and then there’s this whole time cycle for when the flaps are coming up and it adjusts itself into a new flying position. I have a feeling this was an elevator problem. That bank angle warning was the end result. Either intentionally to stop it from climbing or unintentionally as it stalled and rolled. He got into the 90kt ground speed range a few times. The andsb exchange data is even more telling than this VAS video.
 
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