Air India plane crash

[MikeD]

This is crazy. There was actually one survivor. He says he heard a loud noise 30 seconds after takeoff then the plane crashed.

British passenger in seat 11A survives India plane crash, reports say

The London-bound Air India plane carrying 242 people crashed shortly after take-off in western India.

www.bbc.com

Wow. That's amazing he survived that with what looks to be just a few scratches.

Appears to be a credible source, and not another outlet that’s just AI generated garbage.

Highly unusual but oddly not unprecedented. Cecilia Cichan was sole survivor of the Northwest 255 takeoff accident at DTW in 1987.

 

[DropTank]

This maybe?
Or just an artifact from someone filming a screen

View attachment 84061

Thanks.
Sincerely appreciate it.

 

[Roger Roger]

In the takeoff video that is circulating, it looks like they rotated right into a stall.

I’m not sure I agree, to me the CCTV of the full takeoff everything looks fairly normal for a fully loaded heavy until about 100’, then it looks like it just loses any forward push and holds the attitude as it sinks into the ground.

 

[Wardogg]

It is noteworthy that seat 11A on the aircraft is the first row in Economy, next to the mid-cabin boarding door.

View attachment 84062

Figures. I hate that seat. I like my under the seat in front of me space for my backpack.

 

[///AMG]

Wild speculation here, but maybe we have Jeju in the back of our minds, and are grasping for straws to explain some sort of mechanical/aircraft failure (which also feeds the anti Boeing narrative). Could be a lot more simple. Heavy derate, takeoff flaps either not set, or the whole TPR (performance data if that isn't an industry wide term) was wrong, they never firewall the throttles, and spend their little time airborne wondering why it won't climb, rather than 1) pushing throttles full forward 2) raising the gear.

 

[knot4u]

I’m not sure I agree, to me the CCTV of the full takeoff everything looks fairly normal for a fully loaded heavy until about 100’, then it looks like it just loses any forward push and holds the attitude as it sinks into the ground.

I'm unsure of the veracity of the following info but apparently they used an intersection departure that shortened the 11,500' runway to 6,300'. That video of the takeoff you're talking about seems to show them using all of the runway including the overrun (the vortices of dust suggest that portion of the runway rarely gets used), I'd suggest that's not normal for any 121 heavy. I suspect whatever link in the chain broke it happened before they attempted to take-off. I know it's way too early to say definitively what might've happened.

 

[Oxman]

Maybe a little over weight.

 

[Baronman]

I'm unsure of the veracity of the following info but apparently they used an intersection departure that shortened the 11,500' runway to 6,300'. That video of the takeoff you're talking about seems to show them using all of the runway including the overrun (the vortices of dust suggest that portion of the runway rarely gets used), I'd suggest that's not normal for any 121 heavy. I suspect whatever link in the chain broke it happened before they attempted to take-off. I know it's way too early to say definitively what might've happened.

If that were the case....Then maybe you're talking FOD ingestion/power loss? Sure did look like a lot of dust getting kicked up.

 

[Roger Roger]

Maybe a little over weight.

Maybe, but I think the rotation and initial liftoff would look different were that the case. Same for incorrect t/o data/flaps/thrust setting

 

[azmedic]

Uncommanded rollback or RTO gone wrong? A very odd one for sure

 

[inigo88]

Yea I dunno how the FBW system works on the 787. It doesn't appear to be a full stall but the airplane seems to have just enough lift to rotate and that is almost it. No yawing moment, no wing rocking. Looks like a very controlled aircraft right to impact. This is an odd one.

Kinda guessing here but I think the 787 FBW lets you pull to the pitch limit bars and will then hold that attitude, envelope protecting and preventing a stall. Was the A320 similar?

(787 literate folks please correct me if I’m wrong.)

Edit: Sounds like Boeing FBW envelope protections can be overridden with control force?

The Boeing 777 and 787 do however have Flight Envelope Protections. These also work a bit differently than in a modern Airbus, where sidestick inputs are simply ignored or limited by the computers. In a Boeing, the flight envelope protection will use artificial forces on the yokes to provide the following:

Flight Envelope Protection

The flight envelope protection system reduces the possibility of inadvertently exceeding the airplane's flight envelope. The flight envelope protection system provides crew awareness of envelope margins through tactile, aural, and visual cues. The protection functions do not reduce pilot control authority. The protection functions are described later in this section and include:

• stall protection
• overspeed protection
• roll envelope bank angle protection.

(Boeing 777 FCOMv2 9.20.5 - Flight Controls - System Description)

It says that the pilot control authority is not reduced because the pilots can always overpower the simulated forces on the yoke and command the aircraft to go beyond the protected flight envelope.

Essentially, the philosophy for the control authority differs:

• Airbus will not let you do control inputs that might get you killed.
• Boeing will stop you from accidentally making control inputs that might get you killed, but you can override them.

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/83748/what-protections-and-feedback-does-the-fly-by-wire-of-the-boeing-777-787-provide

 

[jtrain609]

I'll say this for the crew regardless of the cause of the accident; they never stopped flying the airplane. Not panicking and putting the aircraft down wings level goes a long way when it comes to getting people out of the aircraft after the crash.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I'll say this for the crew regardless of the cause of the accident; they never stopped flying the airplane. Not panicking and putting the aircraft down wings level goes a long way when it comes to getting people out of the aircraft after the crash.

Unless, as per inigo, they were only allowed to pull to the PLI...

 

[knot4u]

If that were the case....Then maybe you're talking FOD ingestion/power loss? Sure did look like a lot of dust getting kicked up.

This is the video I was referring to.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrFTKHnH00Q

 

[Old Boeing Driver]

I’m not sure I agree, to me the CCTV of the full takeoff everything looks fairly normal for a fully loaded heavy until about 100’, then it looks like it just loses any forward push and holds the attitude as it sinks into the ground.

They weren't that heavy. Reported they had 120,000 pounds onboard out of a possible 220,000. Kind of looks like they never had full T/O thrust got off in ground effect at then end, and then low thrust and drag took over. Just a thought.

 

[JDean3204]

I wonder if there is CCTV footage of previous heavy aircraft taking off, where they rotated and if they kicked that much FOD up as well.

 

[Roger Roger]

Highly unusual but oddly not unprecedented. Cecilia Cichan was sole survivor of the Northwest 255 takeoff accident at DTW in 1987.

Wasn’t there an odd one out survivor in one of the 747 tail bulkhead failure accidents as well?

 

[DropTank]

37c at 189' will show a density altitude around 3000'
That shouldn't be TOO much a factor.

Possible error in takeoff thrust, like a reduced power takeoff made in error?

 

[JDean3204]

37c at 189' will show a density altitude around 3000'
That shouldn't be TOO much a factor.

Possible error in takeoff thrust, like a reduced power takeoff made in error?

I hate speculating, but the rotation seemed normal and the initial climb did as well. As someone else said it was a 100ft+ where things went south.

Talking to a friend, he said maybe fuel contam causing dual engine loss of power, the attitude of the plane just doesn’t show any issues with asymmetric loss of power

 

[jtrain609]

Unless, as per inigo, they were only allowed to pull to the PLI...

Sure, but I'm talking about the roll axis, not the pitch axis. Plenty of airliners, all of the ones I've flown since 2014, have AOA limiters. That still means you need to keep flying the airplane and keep it level. There is nothing stopping you from panicking as you get close to the ground and trying to maneuver around an object you have no chance of avoiding, dragging a wingtip, and killing everyone on board as the airplane cartwheels.

At least one person may have been saved because these guys seemingly kept their • together as they got a front row seat to their impending death.