Our A-10s went to combat in Desert Storm with all low altitude tactics from Europe training, and paid a price.
2 people safely eject from jet that later crashed during Thunder Over Michigan air show 8/13/2023
- Thread starter fholbert
- Start date
Our A-10s went to combat in Desert Storm with all low altitude tactics from Europe training, and paid a price.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Funny you mention this. There is still a notable difference, and there has been since I have been around. Your Hornet squadrons were all either A-7 or A-6 legacies, whereas some F/A-18E and all F/A-18F squadrons were from the VF lineage. Super different cultural nuances. My first tour was in an A-7 legacy squadron, and my third tour was in a tomcat legacy squadron. Such different ready room mentalities.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Haha willy driscoll. That dude is a trip. I have "experienced" (no better term) his lecture multiple times. About 20 mins in, he finds the most junior guy in the room, and stuffs a hornet on a stick into the guy's hand and makes him do something (what, I forget). He has these jugs of colored water too. Lots of props that he brings along. It is a weird thing, but to be fair, he is an American hero. But it is kind of like your weird uncle putting on a performance for the family.
Lawman
Well-Known Member
As we refocus the Army aviation on large scale combat ops, and dumb all this time training RF threats… I’m constantly reminding my guys the second you don’t have too don’t be down there. Bullets are still historically the number 1 killer of airplanes in combat, and more importantly the ground has a Pk of 1.0.
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He’s the only remaining non-pilot ace. The two USAF Navigators who became aces as WSOs, both were sent to UPT to become pilots. The only other non-pilot of the 5 total Vietnam war aces (3 USAF and 2 USN) was Driscoll, and he remained an NFO. According to our check pilot, was an outstanding RIO. In the RAG, he’d often feign having a failed AI radar, so the dash-2 student RIO would be forced to pick up the engagement.
Almost 1.0. There have been a few lucky SOBs who have kissed terra firma, and have recovered and lived to tell about it. But it’s damn close to 1.0 indeed, I agree.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm sure if he were in my backseat tomorrow, he would be better than anyone I have ever flown with. And based on his apparent physical conditioning last time I saw him, he'd be able to hack it. That would be a fun flight for sure. Especially if we got to kill a Sukhoi or MiG
ahw01
Well-Known Member
You've lost that loving feeling...
ahw01
Well-Known Member
Spoken at 107 TOPGUN graduations apparently. The less said about Duke Cunningham the better...
///AMG
Well-Known Member
So there is this thing, about mid way through the course, called "grad 1v1". That night is when the mig killer debrief happens. Willie did a bunch of them. My class's was a guy I have previously spoken about, a WWII ace. It's one of the coolest experiences I've had. The actual grad day is a blur of getting killed, flying home, and then thanking your lucky stars they didn't kick you out, and then wondering why they didn't
5Right_5Left
Well-Known Member
So, a disagreement about when to eject? What are some usual SOP's in a two seater jet?
Preliminary report:
On August 13, about 1515 eastern daylight time, a Mikoyan Gurevich Mig 23UB, N23UB, was
destroyed when it was involved in an accident near Belleville, Michigan. The pilot and pilot
rated observer received minor injuries. The airplane was operated as a Title 14 Code of Federal
Regulations Part 91 airshow exhibition flight.
The flight was performing at the “Thunder over Michigan Airshow” held at the Willow Run
Airport (YIP), Ypsilanti, Michigan. The accident flight was scheduled to be the second to last
act.
The accident airplane was a privately owned Russian designed military fighter airplane that
employed variable geometry wings that allowed the wing sweep angle to be changed in-flight.
The airplane was powered by a single turbojet engine with afterburner capability.
The pilot reported that the flight departed from runway 23 at YIP, followed by a right turn to a
“banana pass” (a low-level knife edge pass) along runway 23. Following the pass, he started
banking the airplane and noticed that the engine afterburner did not ignite, and the airspeed
began to decrease. He brought the swing wings into the fully forward position (16° sweep) to
increase lift and began troubleshooting the problem. He was actively troubleshooting when the
rear seat observer stated that they needed to eject. The pilot reported that he was not ready to
eject and was still troubleshooting the problem and maneuvering the airplane toward runway
27 at YIP when his ejection seat fired, and he was out of the airplane. He stated that if either
occupant pulls the ejection handle, both seats eject.
The rear seat observer stated that the airplane made a pass along the runway and the plan was
to go to the left for another pass followed by a landing. He stated that the engine was not
accelerating. He and the pilot had a brief discussion and began to climb up and gain altitude.
They determined that they had some type of engine problem and needed to get back on the
ground. He stated that they determined they did not have sufficient altitude to make it to a
runway at the airport. He said they were compressed for time and needed to get out. When
asked if he had pulled the ejection seat handles, he stated that he could not specifically
remember but thinks that he would have pulled them.
Video evidence indicated that the airplane was in a left bank when the ejection seats fired. The
airplane continued in the left bank and descended into the ground about 1 mile south of the
approach end of runway 27 at YIP. The wreckage path was about 600 ft. long on a heading of
about 35°. There was a postimpact explosion and fire. The fuselage section that contained the
tail surfaces and engine came to rest adjacent to an apartment building. The remainder of the
airplane was fragmented and distributed along the wreckage path. There were no reported
injuries on the ground.
Preliminary report:
On August 13, about 1515 eastern daylight time, a Mikoyan Gurevich Mig 23UB, N23UB, was
destroyed when it was involved in an accident near Belleville, Michigan. The pilot and pilot
rated observer received minor injuries. The airplane was operated as a Title 14 Code of Federal
Regulations Part 91 airshow exhibition flight.
The flight was performing at the “Thunder over Michigan Airshow” held at the Willow Run
Airport (YIP), Ypsilanti, Michigan. The accident flight was scheduled to be the second to last
act.
The accident airplane was a privately owned Russian designed military fighter airplane that
employed variable geometry wings that allowed the wing sweep angle to be changed in-flight.
The airplane was powered by a single turbojet engine with afterburner capability.
The pilot reported that the flight departed from runway 23 at YIP, followed by a right turn to a
“banana pass” (a low-level knife edge pass) along runway 23. Following the pass, he started
banking the airplane and noticed that the engine afterburner did not ignite, and the airspeed
began to decrease. He brought the swing wings into the fully forward position (16° sweep) to
increase lift and began troubleshooting the problem. He was actively troubleshooting when the
rear seat observer stated that they needed to eject. The pilot reported that he was not ready to
eject and was still troubleshooting the problem and maneuvering the airplane toward runway
27 at YIP when his ejection seat fired, and he was out of the airplane. He stated that if either
occupant pulls the ejection handle, both seats eject.
The rear seat observer stated that the airplane made a pass along the runway and the plan was
to go to the left for another pass followed by a landing. He stated that the engine was not
accelerating. He and the pilot had a brief discussion and began to climb up and gain altitude.
They determined that they had some type of engine problem and needed to get back on the
ground. He stated that they determined they did not have sufficient altitude to make it to a
runway at the airport. He said they were compressed for time and needed to get out. When
asked if he had pulled the ejection seat handles, he stated that he could not specifically
remember but thinks that he would have pulled them.
Video evidence indicated that the airplane was in a left bank when the ejection seats fired. The
airplane continued in the left bank and descended into the ground about 1 mile south of the
approach end of runway 27 at YIP. The wreckage path was about 600 ft. long on a heading of
about 35°. There was a postimpact explosion and fire. The fuselage section that contained the
tail surfaces and engine came to rest adjacent to an apartment building. The remainder of the
airplane was fragmented and distributed along the wreckage path. There were no reported
injuries on the ground.
There’s usually some kind of an agreement of how ejection will be handled, and normally some kind of individual vs command eject capability. That is, most multi seat aircraft have a selector for whether seats fire individually, or where firing one, fires them all in some times sequence. For aircraft with this setting; there’s usually an agreement of whether that setting will be used or not. Some agreements will give the backseater, who isn’t normally flying, the call on when to go. It just depends on 1. How the system works in that jet, and 2. How it was briefed by the front seater.
If your desire was to fly the Prowler EA version, you may well have literally given your right nut... Maybe both nuts.I assume active component Tomcats the first time, then to the reserves for F-4 and eventually F-14 again? What an awesome ride he had. Like I've said, I would have given my left nut to even do a tour in the Intruder. And similarly, I'd have given my right nut too, to have a tour in either the Phantom or Tomcat. I was a Top Gun baby, and that jet (and later the A-6) were all I wanted to fly. Ironically, I remember not even thinking the Hornet was cool at all. A bit more than a couple thousand hours in every variant and production lot built, and now 30+ years later, I guess I was wrong
Complete side tangent, didn't NAS Dallas have a reserve Tomcat squadron or two towards the end of the old reserve hardware days? Or were they only NKX?
thevideographer
Well-Known Member
So the plane was controllable, and the back seater just had no regard at all for the lives of anyone on the ground?
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
Pretty much.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
Bet that's the last time they
Unknown. Not known what was briefed in terms of ejection protocol, what was perceived by the backseater vs the front seater, what was actually communicated over ICS between the two; these are just a few questions.
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
He's already covering his ass with his statement. Doesn't remember pulling the handles but thinks he probably would have? Give me a break.
Temporal distortion is a thing. Have known a few of my own cohorts who have ejected from the aircraft and either can’t remember the entire sequence, or don’t remember initiating it and only remember being in the parachute, after last being in the aircraft. Regardless, the questions I posed are ones that have to be asked and understood, in order to paint the proper picture.
But I’m curious as to who the back seater is, and why he was there in the first place. If the aircraft was doing an aerial demonstration of some kind.
