Challenger 300 Turbulence Death - Prelim Released

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I'll say that my initial training was pretty soft ball'ish on the airframe. Things tended to get a lot more interesting during my recurrents. I actually had a scenario similar to this in the sim, accept mine scenerio was a trim runaway at low altitude and 200kts. It was quite manageable. But of course, I've been flying the plane since 2015 and follow the checklist.

The training centers are under pressure to pass people because of how customer service oriented the training business in corporate aviation. They is little balance between quality training that handing out 100 lashings. The Montreal training center had an instructor infamous for handing out failures like tic tacs. He hated his job and wanted everyone to feel his rapture. So pilots and companies stopped using Montreal as an option training. The other training centers would be booked solid on the airframe while Montreal would be empty because of this. The guy eventually got canned. But Montreal is still stuck with the reputation.

As a former Program manager, TCE, 142 evaluator, check airman at one of the school houses. I can emphatically say that we never pushed to "pass" people. I mean sure in GS there was an element of cooperate and graduate - however, our failure rate was on par with what I saw on the 121 sides. A lot of times, retrained/ rechecked and progressive checks are misunderstood and it does differ from 121 in the sense that an Unsat may be retrained until proficient. We did commit resources and time to lagging students, however we didn't push them through.

I can't speak for other centers, but, we sent pilots home. Where we struggled was staffing - people were gone before they had a chance to develop robust training scenarios. This was a big part of the reason why I rehired some retired TCE's to come and do instructor development. we were the first in the center to do it, and it resulted in significant improvement in the quality of material and delivery.

Quality, scenario-based training should never feel like lashings though. I mean it's kind of silly, we know that performance increases initially with applied stress, however, it falls off quickly, and, during "stress" events no learning happens. The best and most quality learning, corelation and comprehension happens when stress is not an external motivation.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I also really think there’s missed wordplay opportunity here if you do want to • on corporate guys. Corporate -> Corp -> Corpse? Something like that.

I don’t know but not only is CC just out to lunch on things (per usual) but he’s really missing some excellent puns and that really bothers me.

“Bruh, you went with Corpie? Not even Corpsie or Corpserate Pilots, c’mon, man!”

lol... It's not called Corpie becasue NCAA was already taken... NBAA was option #2

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

In-Corp-itant?

 

[SteveC]

As a former Program manager, TCE, 142 evaluator, check airman at one of the school houses. I can emphatically say that we never pushed to "pass" people. I mean sure in GS there was an element of cooperate and graduate - however, our failure rate was on par with what I saw on the 121 sides. A lot of times, retrained/ rechecked and progressive checks are misunderstood and it does differ from 121 in the sense that an Unsat may be retrained until proficient. We did commit resources and time to lagging students, however we didn't push them through.

I can't speak for other centers, but, we sent pilots home. Where we struggled was staffing - people were gone before they had a chance to develop robust training scenarios. This was a big part of the reason why I rehired some retired TCE's to come and do instructor development. we were the first in the center to do it, and it resulted in significant improvement in the quality of material and delivery.

Quality, scenario-based training should never feel like lashings though. I mean it's kind of silly, we know that performance increases initially with applied stress, however, it falls off quickly, and, during "stress" events no learning happens. The best and most quality learning, corelation and comprehension happens when stress is not an external motivation.

Having worked in a 91/135 management position for many years I received more than one phone call about a pilot that was having trouble. Sometimes we rolled the dice and approved more training, sometimes we pulled the plug.

 

[Itchy]

Allegiant A320 at Bangor on Mar 20th 2023, lined up with runway edge line for departure

Discover all inside details about what happened during airplane incident Allegiant A320 at Bangor on Mar 20th 2023, lined up with runway edge line for departure

www.aeroinside.com

Oh 121…

No way! 121 *never* screws the pooch! I said this earlier. Error! Error!

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Having worked in a 91/135 management position for many years I received more than one phone call about a pilot that was having trouble. Sometimes we rolled the dice and approved more training, sometimes we pulled the plug.

I made that call a few times lol. Never comfortable - but when stuff went sideways, it’s always easier when we did the correct thing. There were times where it just wasn’t going to work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ppragman]

In-Corp-itant?

See, this is far better than "Corpie" more puns and backronyms please.

 

[derg]

See, this is far better than "Corpie" more puns and backronyms please.

See, the problem with @Cherokee_Cruiser deciding he speaks for us all and belittling another professional pilot with words like "corpie" sets the stage for "Weenie" as in "One tWEENIE One pilots".

It's rarely the punch that starts the party, it's the punch back.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

See, the problem with @Cherokee_Cruiser deciding he speaks for us all and belittling another professional pilot with words like "corpie" sets the stage for "Weenie" as in "One tWEENIE One pilots".

It's rarely the punch that starts the party, it's the punch back.

I find humor in it, because, CC doesn't meet our hiring mins lol... in the back of my mind there's a little bit of an lol going on. neither here nor there though.

 

[derg]

I find humor in it, because, CC doesn't meet our hiring mins lol... in the back of my mind there's a little bit of an lol going on. neither here nor there though.

Hatin' from ousside da club again ain't he?

 

[KLB]

As a former Program manager, TCE, 142 evaluator, check airman at one of the school houses. I can emphatically say that we never pushed to "pass" people. I mean sure in GS there was an element of cooperate and graduate - however, our failure rate was on par with what I saw on the 121 sides. A lot of times, retrained/ rechecked and progressive checks are misunderstood and it does differ from 121 in the sense that an Unsat may be retrained until proficient. We did commit resources and time to lagging students, however we didn't push them through.

I can't speak for other centers, but, we sent pilots home. Where we struggled was staffing - people were gone before they had a chance to develop robust training scenarios. This was a big part of the reason why I rehired some retired TCE's to come and do instructor development. we were the first in the center to do it, and it resulted in significant improvement in the quality of material and delivery.

Quality, scenario-based training should never feel like lashings though. I mean it's kind of silly, we know that performance increases initially with applied stress, however, it falls off quickly, and, during "stress" events no learning happens. The best and most quality learning, corelation and comprehension happens when stress is not an external motivation.

I will definitely not go out and say that it is an industry wide issue. But there were a few cases at a former operation where a couple of pilots slipped through the training cracks and hit the line that needed terminated due to their inability to safely operate the aircraft. And I don’t think this was the training center's fault. I put these instances squarely on the operation for hiring these individuals without properly vetting them in the first place.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

“ 13 years, 80 different countries/territories, 19 North Atlantic crossings, 95% of this single-pilot; and thankful every day that God watches over! “




Proving the other side’s point. No thanks!


I’ve long believed it’s the Corpie world that shows single pilot ops, then it’ll hit the cargo world, and as much as we’ll beotch and moan, the pax world. Heck, they’re already trying some reduced pilot crap overseas (I think some Cathay trials).

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Major air disasters in last 10 years: CHECK worst and best years in aviation safety

While the Nepal Plane Crash is the first major aviation disaster of 2023, there have been many fatal crashes in the history of the aviation.

zeenews.india.com

Look at all these airline crashes... I'm certainly never stepping on an AS jet.
Also, nobody calls it Corpie lol.

Foreign airlines? Oh we weren’t even talking foreign Corpie operators. There’s been way too many eff ups and fatalities of foreign corpies. That list would be long.

You will take your DHs on 121 carriers and like it

 

[CFI A&P]

How about foreign airlines ?

Brazilian soccer team's plane ran out of fuel before crash

Authorities release report on an airliner that crashed with a Brazilian soccer team aboard

www.usatoday.com

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I find humor in it, because, CC doesn't meet our hiring mins lol... in the back of my mind there's a little bit of an lol going on. neither here nor there though.

Why? Helicopter and/or single engine aircraft? Or do you require Corpie Jet time? Any case, I’m not applying but thank you for the cordial corpial reception.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

How about foreign airlines ?

Brazilian soccer team's plane ran out of fuel before crash

Authorities release report on an airliner that crashed with a Brazilian soccer team aboard

www.usatoday.com

A charter Avro, for a pilot owned company that had 2 planes? That’s basically a Corpie operation.

How about 2 Corpies flying a brand new Legacy jet, clueless about its features, and accidentally turning off TCAS with their foot on the footrest, and never once seeing the TCAS off/sby indication on the MFD? Took out a 737. Yeah, it’s Brazilian ATC fault, but as far as I’m concerned thee guys still contributed to it. Gibberish talk on and on, it was only when the left seat CA stepped back to the bathroom that the remaining pilot thought oh I should get in touch with someone, we haven’t talked in ages. These two flew over Brazil like they were flying over the 48 states. Chilled, relaxed, checked out.
I know the accident wasn’t officially their fault, but TCAS on would have saved them. Vanity Fair did a good article on this crash.


For Brazil, you would have done better pointing to the TAM 3054 disaster. Highly experienced A320 made a critical mistake, one of those “I can’t believe this is why the accident happened.”


Worldwide corpies? Endless examples. There was the Linate airport disaster where a Corpie went south instead of north, entered the runway, took out a SAS maddog taking off in low vis. All dead.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Why? Helicopter and/or single engine aircraft? Or do you require Corpie Jet time? Any case, I’m not applying but thank you for the cordial corpial reception.

No, you don't meet Argus/ Wyrem - and wouldn't know what Descend to controlled airspace means, or, for that matter what happens above controlled airspace in the NAT HLA ( or likely anything about NAT HLA ops). Sans crossings, IPC's, etc and general unfamiliarity with the LOA's required we'd need to babysit, and, we don't train in the airplane. I'm assuming you've never cracked the Gold doc. I also suspect that your're not up to speed with SMS/QMS. How many safety and standards meeting have you attended in the last 12/24? you also have no prior CKA/TCE/Mil time.

That CV/REs would be direct to the circular lol.

 

[CFI A&P]

A charter Avro, for a pilot owned company that had 2 planes? That’s basically a Corpie operation.

How about 2 Corpies flying a brand new Legacy jet, clueless about its features, and accidentally turning off TCAS with their foot on the footrest, and never once seeing the TCAS off/sby indication on the MFD? Took out a 737. Yeah, it’s Brazilian ATC fault, but as far as I’m concerned thee guys still contributed to it. Gibberish talk on and on, it was only when the left seat CA stepped back to the bathroom that the remaining pilot thought oh I should get in touch with someone, we haven’t talked in ages. These two flew over Brazil like they were flying over the 48 states. Chilled, relaxed, checked out.
I know the accident wasn’t officially their fault, but TCAS on would have saved them. Vanity Fair did a good article on this crash.


For Brazil, you would have done better pointing to the TAM 3054 disaster. Highly experienced A320 made a critical mistake, one of those “I can’t believe this is why the accident happened.”


Worldwide corpies? Endless examples. There was the Linate airport disaster where a Corpie went south instead of north, entered the runway, took out a SAS maddog taking off in low vis. All dead.

Pinnacle 3701, or Colgan or Comair 5191…. Isn’t there a stat out there about Gulfstream Academy graduates being involved in a bunch of airline accidents ?

Didn’t you get schooled earlier this thread about how transition altitude isn’t always 18,000 feet and that’s why some operators use a checklist for transition ?

We could go back and forth all day.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

No, you don't meet Argus/ Wyrem - and wouldn't know what Descend to controlled airspace means, or, for that matter what happens above controlled airspace in the NAT HLA ( or likely anything about NAT HLA ops). Sans crossings, IPC's, etc and general unfamiliarity with the LOA's required we'd need to babysit, and, we don't train in the airplane. I'm assuming you've never cracked the Gold doc. I also suspect that your're not up to speed with SMS/QMS. How many safety and standards meeting have you attended in the last 12/24? you also have no prior CKA/TCE/Mil time.

That CV/REs would be direct to the circular lol.

Meh. Obviously with 0 Corpie jet time, I don't meet the 250 hrs on type for Argus/Wyrem. The other hours I am way over. The rest of the comment on ETOPS-style things can be taught. This isn't God's gift to aviation flying. Like anything, it can be learned and depending on learning ability, fairly quickly. We have a SMS system at our shop, although I'm not on any safety team. I read the info that's disseminated and learn from others' mistakes. Also have FOQA and an ALPA ability to ask for and re-create an animation of any of our recent flights (eg, approach phase, landing, etc).

Don't worry, I'm not applying to your Corpie company. And no offense with hiring being what it is, I don't see why someone young *today* would go for a Corpie career when the big 6 in America offer so much more. Pay, retirement, fixed predictable schedule, etc.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Pinnacle 3701, or Colgan or Comair 5191…. Isn’t there a stat out there about Gulfstream Academy graduates being involved in a bunch of airline accidents ?

Didn’t you get schooled earlier this thread about how transition altitude isn’t always 18,000 feet and that’s why some operators use a checklist for transition ?

We could go back and forth all day.

Yes. And I'm sure you know, but I've always written here about multiple-failure pilots who should not be flying 121, and how ALPA protects them. To be fair, I call out 121 too. Colgan and Atlas happened due to sheer incometence by the PF who should have been told years ago that they shouldn't be flying planes.