F16 training intercept on holding GA aircraft

[///AMG]

don’t get me wrong, the modern weaponry and technology is very impressive in its own right. Capes we only were able to wish for back in the day. Combatant commanders are supposed to have the power to execute as they see fit, however politics will always seemingly work their way into that, positively or negatively.

All true points. I hope that if the balloon ever truly goes up, we get what we need. Whether that actually happens is another question. Probably in a true US v Russia or US v China WWIII setting (because what does it even matter at that point?), but a more regional conflict a la Iran/NK/etc.....that would be the trickier question to answer.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

haha reminds me of a friend who not only didn't read the notams, but subsequently entered a fire fighting TFR (within our MOA mind you) and did a visual ID intercept of a firefighting Herk based on a radar pickup. It was amazing.

Wait, military pilots are supposed to read notams?

 

[Lawman]

All true points. I hope that if the balloon ever truly goes up, we get what we need. Whether that actually happens is another question. Probably in a true US v Russia or US v China WWIII setting (because what does it even matter at that point?), but a more regional conflict a la Iran/NK/etc.....that would be the trickier question to answer.

Honestly the assessments coming out of Ukraine have been very reassuring in some areas as far as how we get around stuff like D3OE and other boogieman problems.

It’s been eye opening from minor problem to outright terrifying in other issues though. Lot of parallels between us and the Russians that should lead to some very real changes in training/doctrine/procurement models over the next few years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[NovemberEcho]

It’s been eye opening from minor problem to outright terrifying in other issues though

I know you can’t, but god I’d love for you to be able to expand on that

 

[n57flyguy]

Although I agree 100% that this is a really bad idea, absolutely nothing in the FAR/AIM applies to military or public use aircraft.

Well considering the 11-202 alot of the AIM is referenced as a source relating to instrument procedures after the 11-217 was removed/consolidated in 2019 - that's not entirely true. And many rules are the same as FARs.

250/10 is a thing still, and depends on specific MWS/tech order.

 

[MikeD]

Well considering the 11-202 alot of the AIM is referenced as a source relating to instrument procedures after the 11-217 was removed/consolidated in 2019 - that's not entirely true. And many rules are the same as FARs.

250/10 is a thing still, and depends on specific MWS/tech order.

lol. Was AFR 60-16 and AFM 51-37, respectively, when I started.

the actual FARs themselves don’t apply, but a god number of things that is in the two pubs mirrors the FARs insofar as generally standardizing ops within the National Airspace System. The idea being that mil ops are not accountable to 14 CFR 91, and hence not under FAA purview, even though the some of the same exact regs exist in 60-16 / 11-202….of which the mil ops are accountable. And of course, instruments is instruments. For instruments, It is interesting in 91.175, for descending below DA/DH, it is one part of 91 that specifically references “except a military aircraft of the United States”.

yup 250 below 10 applies for aircraft not having an MWS need for higher, or if in a low level MTR environment or in special use airspace.

 

[NovemberEcho]

It’s funny that y’all don’t use the FAR but mil ATC still uses the 7110.65

 

[killbilly]

@knot4u I'd say fighter training is still heavily (at least in the Navy) biased to dogfighting (or as we call it, BFM) training. And a lot of beyond visual range stuff too. The upgrade syllabus for a new guy, as well as when I was a student going through TOPGUN, was about 50/50 BVR vs WVR/BFM. Part of that was because we typically "re-flew" each BFM event about 2-5 times, so those 6 flights became closer to 20. The "hassling ended in Korea, radar missiles are the only solution" axiom shift was 60 years ago. We learned from the mistakes I think, starting in the 1970's. Mike isn't wrong that we have lost some skills due to really nice technology, but I'd say the actual impacts of that are more esoteric than some true equivalent to the airline magenta. We largely still know how to fight at the merge, much better than just about anyone else in the world. A few of us were fortunate enough to get a graduate degree and teach it on the reg.

Gun employment is still challenging. It has never been easier than it is now, but you still have to get the hands doing the right stuff to put the thing on the thing

I've been told more than once that the Aussie fighter pilots are particularly outstanding at BFM. Any experience with this in joint exercises or stuff like that?

 

[///AMG]

I've been told more than once that the Aussie fighter pilots are particularly outstanding at BFM. Any experience with this in joint exercises or stuff like that?

I've flown with plenty of Aussies (we train all the RAAF EA-18G crews here), and quite a few RAF folks too back when I flew F/A-18s. They have very solid aviators. Their training is very similar to ours. I'd say in terms of BFM, we all do it a lot, really comes down to the individual. I wouldn't really say they are notably better than US or UK pilots, though sometimes I think our counterparts in her majesty's service take the job a little more seriously than some I've encountered in the US service. That's just really anecdotal though, and almost certainly doesn't mean much of anything. Most of the world would have a pretty bad time fighting 1v1 against your average US/UK/AUS fighter pilot.

 

[derg]

haha I was flying with an old AF guy the other day, and somehow I mentioned I have this friend (you) who keeps telling me to practice manual bombing. We both laughed so hard we entered a deep stall and never recovered

In all seriousness, I feel like I bridge some weird gap between the generation that raised me, with all their GP bombs and no GPS (the Hornet I learned to fly didn't have it), and the kids today who think they have to go back to the line if they can't get GPS sats. Or any other number of IMHO nice to haves. You'd look at me like I was retarded in the same way, but kids these days. It is amazing to see what they aren't comfortable with.

My instructor said I was the best darned PA-38-112 driver he's ever seen.

 

[form810]

None of this applies to military aircraft.

True. But then again, nepotism is NOT supposed to apply to milcraft either.

 

[killbilly]

I've flown with plenty of Aussies (we train all the RAAF EA-18G crews here), and quite a few RAF folks too back when I flew F/A-18s. They have very solid aviators. Their training is very similar to ours. I'd say in terms of BFM, we all do it a lot, really comes down to the individual. I wouldn't really say they are notably better than US or UK pilots, though sometimes I think our counterparts in her majesty's service take the job a little more seriously than some I've encountered in the US service. That's just really anecdotal though, and almost certainly doesn't mean much of anything. Most of the world would have a pretty bad time fighting 1v1 against your average US/UK/AUS fighter pilot.

Appreciate the thoughts. I kind of figured this was probably the case but had no frame of reference or data, obviously.

 

[form810]

I've flown with plenty of Aussies (we train all the RAAF EA-18G crews here), and quite a few RAF folks too back when I flew F/A-18s. They have very solid aviators. Their training is very similar to ours. I'd say in terms of BFM, we all do it a lot, really comes down to the individual. I wouldn't really say they are notably better than US or UK pilots, though sometimes I think our counterparts in her majesty's service take the job a little more seriously than some I've encountered in the US service. That's just really anecdotal though, and almost certainly doesn't mean much of anything. Most of the world would have a pretty bad time fighting 1v1 against your average US/UK/AUS fighter pilot.

And the Aussies teach the Chinese... or something like that.
Former US military pilot who worked in China arrested in Australia | CNN

 

[///AMG]

Appreciate the thoughts. I kind of figured this was probably the case but had no frame of reference or data, obviously.

I will say that I have been consistently impressed with the professionalism of UK and AUS aviators. In that realm, I think they do better, on the average than we do. Not that we are unprofessional, but in the US, you always seem to have the onesy-twoesy jack wagons in every squadron who just DGAF and don't actually care about improving their skills. If you see someone on TikTok/social media/youtube posting about how they are a fighter pilot, odds are they are this person. That being said, I also imagine they try to send us their best and brightest, so my impression may be slanted in that sense. A couple of the best aviators I have ever flown with, wear a Union Jack shoulder patch. I'd say we have a very close relationship with our RAF/RAAF counterparts, much moreso than any other NATO service.

 

[Lawman]

I will say that I have been consistently impressed with the professionalism of UK and AUS aviators. In that realm, I think they do better, on the average than we do. Not that we are unprofessional, but in the US, you always seem to have the onesy-twoesy jack wagons in every squadron who just DGAF and don't actually care about improving their skills. If you see someone on TikTok/social media/youtube posting about how they are a fighter pilot, odds are they are this person. That being said, I also imagine they try to send us their best and brightest, so my impression may be slanted in that sense. A couple of the best aviators I have ever flown with, wear a Union Jack shoulder patch. I'd say we have a very close relationship with our RAF/RAAF counterparts, much moreso than any other NATO service.

I’ve definitely noticed a more universally severe shift towards professional/devout drive with mid/senior grade RAF/AUS officers over our own.

I think it really is that the ones we meet in those positions simply have to have that sort of personality quark where we through sheer volume of personnel don’t need to have the same level of on to be successful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[///AMG]

I’ve definitely noticed a more universally severe shift towards professional/devout drive with mid/senior grade RAF/AUS officers over our own.

I think it really is that the ones we meet in those positions simply have to have that sort of personality quark where we through sheer volume of personnel don’t need to have the same level of on to be successful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I imagine this is a good point. Their fighter communities are very small, much much smaller than ours.