My first flight as an Air Attack pilot

DE727UPS said:
It kinda was to me too but I have nothing to compare it to. The USFS has a 7 page document that summarizes there rules and expectations. They do a briefing o that before the carding ride. The carding flight you have to fly safely with a USFS aviation guy on a short observation hop. He has you orbit a point and tries to get you to go below 500 agl. I think he's judging you on your ability to guess agl altitudes without reference to the altimeter. You have to do a 180 degree escape maneuver, which is like a 180 steep turn. The hardest thing is for some reason they want you to be able to program the stupid FM radios they use. They aren't like an aircraft radio I've ever seen and if you mess one thing up you have to start over. And it's hard to hit the right keys in turbulence. I swear it took my 15 minutes and 10 do overs to get the radio programed cause it was so rough. Hope I never have to do that.
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It just seems that most places that contract for air attack severely lack in the academics they give their pilots. Sure, there’s a 7 page pamphlet on what’s expected of how to fly a right turn orbit over a fire; yet no education on what it is you are supporting, how you are supporting it, what is all being done, and who the players are. And yet, you’re the command and control ship over the fire for air assets.

it would be like UPS just teaching you to fly a 727 only, and telling you nothing or who is who at your ground stations, what it is that they do, or anything regarding how they work or relate to you as the aircrew.
 
BobDDuck said:
@DE727UPS FEMA offers free online courses for ICS. They are rather... dull, but give you an overview of everything. You can print up a certificate at the end too.

This is IC100. IC700 is also a good one to take.

IS-0100.c: An Introduction to the Incident Command System, ICS 100

emilms.fema.gov
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Surprised that the IC100 isn't a requirement for that kind of position. We had to do it for the ski patrol and our outdoor emergency certification. Your not kidding that it is really dull but breaks out what the roles and expectations are and gives a good outline of what is going on.
 
DE727UPS said:
It kinda was to me too but I have nothing to compare it to. The USFS has a 7 page document that summarizes there rules and expectations. They do a briefing o that before the carding ride. The carding flight you have to fly safely with a USFS aviation guy on a short observation hop. He has you orbit a point and tries to get you to go below 500 agl. I think he's judging you on your ability to guess agl altitudes without reference to the altimeter. You have to do a 180 degree escape maneuver, which is like a 180 steep turn. The hardest thing is for some reason they want you to be able to program the stupid FM radios they use. They aren't like an aircraft radio I've ever seen and if you mess one thing up you have to start over. And it's hard to hit the right keys in turbulence. I swear it took my 15 minutes and 10 do overs to get the radio programed cause it was so rough. Hope I never have to do that.
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You mean this lil gem???...CAP has a few and probably the newer versions

 
MikeD said:
It just seems that most places that contract for air attack severely lack in the academics they give their pilots. Sure, there’s a 7 page pamphlet on what’s expected of how to fly a right turn orbit over a fire; yet no education on what it is you are supporting, how you are supporting it, what is all being done, and who the players are. And yet, you’re the command and control ship over the fire for air assets.

it would be like UPS just teaching you to fly a 727 only, and telling you nothing or who is who at your ground stations, what it is that they do, or anything regarding how they work or relate to you as the aircrew.
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Homepage - National Advanced Fire & Resource Institute | National Advanced Fire & Resource Institute

www.nafri.gov www.nafri.gov

They have "courses" and "academics" for SEAT drivers ...not so much for the contract twin crowd doing the Commander series aircraft

Yeah Im not so sure this qualifies and I'm sure there's a wait list or some sort of "why we don't do this" type of answer.........

Someday, maybe, the land management agencies will treat contractors with more respect.
 
arkflyr said:
Surprised that the IC100 isn't a requirement for that kind of position. We had to do it for the ski patrol and our outdoor emergency certification. Your not kidding that it is really dull but breaks out what the roles and expectations are and gives a good outline of what is going on.
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sadly, a number of those air operations bidding on lowest bidder air attack contracts and using whatever clapped out Shrike Aero Commander or early 90 series King Air can muster up, and it’s not surprising that they do the absolute minimum for aircrew training. Reminds me of where the contract air tanker world was pre-2002, where wings were falling off of PB4Y and A model C-130s. Now they’re falling off of 90 series King Airs.
 
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MikeD said:
sadly, a number of those air operations bidding on lowest bidder air attack contracts and using whatever clapped out Shrike Aero Commander or early 90 series King Air can muster up, and it’s not surprising that they do the absolute minimum for aircrew training. Reminds me of where the contract air tanker world was pre-2002, where wings were falling off of PB4Y and A model C-130s. Now they’re falling off of 90 series King Airs.
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You're probably right, Mike!

But with some of the (what I have heard) of some new contract requirements like a loudspeakers and whatnot that some of the contract Puzzle Palace dreams up......you know ...let's put out more requirements out there so we can gets some more STCs and 337s

You know the deal.....
 
MikeD said:
sadly, a number of those air operations bidding on lowest bidder air attack contracts and using whatever clapped out Shrike Aero Commander or early 90 series King Air can muster up, and it’s not surprising that they do the absolute minimum for aircrew training. Reminds me of where the contract air tanker world was pre-2002, where wings were falling off of PB4Y and A model C-130s. Now they’re falling off of 90 series King Airs.
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For the 90 series...wasn't that a bolt inspection? Replacements?
 
MikeD said:
it would be like UPS just teaching you to fly a 727 only, and telling you nothing or who is who at your ground stations, what it is that they do, or anything regarding how they work or relate to you as the aircrew.
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Actually, UPS didn't teach us any of that. You picked it up as you went along or during IOE. Years later, new hires had to do a day as a delivery drivers helper, which is sort of what your talking about. I think they quit doing it as they would rather get people on the line as fast as possible. I've mentioned to 3 ATGS guys that I have no idea what I'm doing other than how to fly the plane. They all seem happy with being IOE instructors. I did get a lengthy ground briefing from one guy, which was greatly appreciated.
 
stroboli62 said:
You're probably right, Mike!

But with some of the (what I have heard) of some new contract requirements like a loudspeakers and whatnot that some of the contract Puzzle Palace dreams up......you know ...let's put out more requirements out there so we can gets some more STCs and 337s

You know the deal.....
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I think that's why the company had ADSB in installed just before the season started. Probably why they have an air conditioning mod/STC, too.
 
DE727UPS said:
HAHA....yeah, that's it. If it wasn't for the guy who put out the youtube video on that thing I would have been completely lost. The book was useless.
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Speaking of YouTube have you seen this channel?

I think it’s ATGS training oriented but that’s probably perfect for you given your questions.

Regarding your earlier posts about the IC and the ATGS doing their own things, that’s kind of in the spirit of the Incident Command System. ICS is set up to be scalable and recognize that no one person will have ATC-level SA, so responsibility is delegated down the chain of command. While the IC is the final authority for the incident, there’s likely an operations section chief managing multiple branches, with each branch containing multiple divisions, and each division consisting of multiple ground units (type 3 engines, dozers, water tenders, etc).

I kind of think of Air Attack and the ATGS as the airborne operations section or at least a branch level operations section chief (curious where they would actually fall on the ICS chain of command?), so once the ATGS gets in touch with the IC on the radio and comes up with a top level game plan, responsibility is delegated to them to execute that plan and Air Attack has the freedom to control where the air assets go and what they do, coordinating back with the incident command post periodically as the situation evolves.

Edit: Whoops answered my own question. Air ops is indeed parallel to branch level below the Operations section chief. And Air Attack is the head of air ops.

1657057928670.png


2nd edit: Try and get your hands on incident briefing paperwork for a large fire. The ICS forms for how the resources are divided up (showing which individual engines constitute strike teams, divisions and branches) as well as the communications plan showing how all the radio channels are allocated will be really helpful.
 
DE727UPS said:
Actually, UPS didn't teach us any of that. You picked it up as you went along or during IOE. Years later, new hires had to do a day as a delivery drivers helper, which is sort of what your talking about. I think they quit doing it as they would rather get people on the line as fast as possible. I've mentioned to 3 ATGS guys that I have no idea what I'm doing other than how to fly the plane. They all seem happy with being IOE instructors. I did get a lengthy ground briefing from one guy, which was greatly appreciated.
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you didn’t get to ride a UPS truck? Haha. :) I mean, I’m all for getting a briefing on how the operation works, I don’t expect guys to go have to actually work it. :)
 
inigo88 said:
Speaking of YouTube have you seen this channel?

I think it’s ATGS training oriented but that’s probably perfect for you given your questions.

Regarding your earlier posts about the IC and the ATGS doing their own things, that’s kind of in the spirit of the Incident Command System. ICS is set up to be scalable and recognize that no one person will have ATC-level SA, so responsibility is delegated down the chain of command. While the IC is the final authority for the incident, there’s likely an operations section chief managing multiple branches, with each branch containing multiple divisions, and each division consisting of multiple ground units (type 3 engines, dozers, water tenders, etc).

I kind of think of Air Attack and the ATGS as the airborne operations section or at least a branch level operations section chief (curious where they would actually fall on the ICS chain of command?), so once the ATGS gets in touch with the IC on the radio and comes up with a top level game plan, responsibility is delegated to them to execute that plan and Air Attack has the freedom to control where the air assets go and what they do, coordinating back with the incident command post periodically as the situation evolves.

Edit: Whoops answered my own question. Air ops is indeed parallel to branch level below the Operations section chief. And Air Attack is the head of air ops.

View attachment 65718

2nd edit: Try and get your hands on incident briefing paperwork for a large fire. The ICS forms for how the resources are divided up (showing which individual engines constitute strike teams, divisions and branches) as well as the communications plan showing how all the radio channels are allocated will be really helpful.
Click to expand...

Air Ops is equivalent to ground ops in terms of command, however ground ops has much more breakdown from there in terms of asset types and delegation of same.

It’s just like the military; the IC sets out the plan, and gives ops the freedom of execution to meet the designated objectives.
 
MikeD said:
So you can understand it, Air Attack is merely the E-2 Hawkeye minus the radar dome and with one backender, all it does is orbit. Most Air Attack planes are ancient 90 series King Airs or Aero Commanders. The Leadplane, if there is one assigned, is the FAC. Some air tankers can do initial attack on their own with no leadplane, such as single engine tankers; while others require a leadplane before they can employ, such as VLAT (DC-10/747) or MAFFS (USAF C-130).
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So the Air Attack bird basically owns procedural control of the stack (or the equivalent) then? Leadplane being brief/mark/control?
 
///AMG said:
So the Air Attack bird basically owns procedural control of the stack (or the equivalent) then? Leadplane being brief/mark/control?
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That’s basically it. What you guys call TAC-A, is the Air Attack bird. Manages the Fire Traffic Area / TFR.
 
MikeD said:
That’s basically it. What you guys call TAC-A, is the Air Attack bird. Manages the Fire Traffic Area / TFR.
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This reminds me of a buddy of mine. While going through the TOPGUN course, his mind was probably too focused on other stuff typical of our briefs to process the NOTAMs and TFR portion. Picked up a radar contact on his point defense flight, right in the middle of the FRTC. He led his wingman to do a visual ID on said contact, only to realize that it was a brightly painted C-130 doing fire support in a wildfire, and he got to a high aspect merge with it at 500 knots, putting out flares, right in the middle of a fire TFR :bounce: Great dude BTW, bats for your team now in the Guard, light grays of course.
 
Mike, I think I'm learning more from you than the ATGS guys. The fire I was on had only 4 small aircraft. I know about the FTA and boundaries but I was wondering, when they start running big tankers, if they only allow one in at a time. They can cover 5 miles pretty quick and use vertical separation on the little guys until ready to drop. Or maybe they orbit somewhere and then hook up with a lead plane every time. The videos I've seen were just SEAT's and no lead plane. If it keeps raining up here we won't even have a fire season, which would be fine by me...
 
DE727UPS said:
Mike, I think I'm learning more from you than the ATGS guys. The fire I was on had only 4 small aircraft. I know about the FTA and boundaries but I was wondering, when they start running big tankers, if they only allow one in at a time. They can cover 5 miles pretty quick and use vertical separation on the little guys until ready to drop. Or maybe they orbit somewhere and then hook up with a lead plane every time. The videos I've seen were just SEAT's and no lead plane. If it keeps raining up here we won't even have a fire season, which would be fine by me...
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the SEATs can generally attack on their own without a leadplane, as they’re slow enough to see where everything is. The large tankers generally employ one at a time, with the leadplane working one at a time. If there is more than one in the area, the Air Attack will generally park them overhead in orbit inside the TFR/FTA, until the leadplane is ready to take them and use them, once the leadplane is done with the heavy tanker they are already working. Generally that’s how you’ll see ops on larger fires that have multiple heavy air assets assigned to them. The SEATSs are much more easy to manage in this way, in terms of having them hold while others are employing, simply due to being smaller, more maneuverable, and even able to proceed to/from the fire area as a flight in many cases.
 
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