RAPCON and VFR

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Curious as to some controller operational differences.

U90 Class C, when I depart either TUS or DMA airfields as a helo, I stay about 1000-1500 Agl, which keeps me below the outer shelf of the Class C. That way, outside of 5 miles, I can just cancel with tower and be done and on my way. My questions with this are as follows, as well as a comparison later on here:

1. Some tower controllers ask as I’m nearing the edge of the surface area “would you like to talk to radar?” To which I answer no, and the tower controller cancels me there and clears me to squawk and change to tactical.

However, other tower controllers give me a frequency change to departure without asking me if I want to talk to radar; and when I decline it, am told “I’m required to have you off, you cancel with them”

why the difference?

2. when talking to departure control when outbound, by this time I’m underneath the outer shelf of the Class C. I make a radio call of “clear to the [insert cardinal direction]”; to which I will get a response to squawk and change and radar service terminated from some controllers.

And a few other controllers will tell me “just remain with me, I need to hold on to you for the next X miles then I’ll release you”. Yet, I’m underneath their airspace shelf, and about to go outside the lateral confines of their airspace, and there’s no traffic around. Why are they holding on to me, when my objective is to drop ATC as soon as I can so I can devote my time to the tactical radios? Why do they want to keep me around, in airspace that isn’t even in their area of responsibility?

By way of comparison, P50…..PHX Class B….their TRACON doesn’t want to talk to a helo for anything, unless it’s requesting a practice instrument approach that part of it impinges on some part of the Class B. Otherwise, they don’t seemingly want anything to do with us since they are usually busy.

Even PHX tower wants to minimize the comms. A few years back, the oval shape of the Class B surface area that surrounded KPHX, was changed to a “bowtie” shape. That allowed helos and even light fixed wing to fly much closer to the middle of KPHX in the north and south sides of the center of the airport…..below the shelf and almost up to the edge of the airport. For helipads and such located in these areas, this much reduced the radio traffic of helos calling for takeoff and landings from pads that weren’t even physically on the airport, even though there are a few on the sides of the bowtie still, but the workload of PHX tower to VFR helos was greatly reduced.

Why does U90 want to hang on to every VFR helo seemingly; and P50 appears to be not at all be interested in talking to routine helo ops, if at all possible? Such a 180 degree difference in operational philosophy.
 
This is pretty interesting to hear. I'd always wondered why helo pilots talk on ground/tower so very much. Perhaps it is an expectation?
 
Curious as to some controller operational differences.

U90 Class C, when I depart either TUS or DMA airfields as a helo, I stay about 1000-1500 Agl, which keeps me below the outer shelf of the Class C. That way, outside of 5 miles, I can just cancel with tower and be done and on my way. My questions with this are as follows, as well as a comparison later on here:

1. Some tower controllers ask as I’m nearing the edge of the surface area “would you like to talk to radar?” To which I answer no, and the tower controller cancels me there and clears me to squawk and change to tactical.

However, other tower controllers give me a frequency change to departure without asking me if I want to talk to radar; and when I decline it, am told “I’m required to have you off, you cancel with them”

why the difference?

2. when talking to departure control when outbound, by this time I’m underneath the outer shelf of the Class C. I make a radio call of “clear to the [insert cardinal direction]”; to which I will get a response to squawk and change and radar service terminated from some controllers.

And a few other controllers will tell me “just remain with me, I need to hold on to you for the next X miles then I’ll release you”. Yet, I’m underneath their airspace shelf, and about to go outside the lateral confines of their airspace, and there’s no traffic around. Why are they holding on to me, when my objective is to drop ATC as soon as I can so I can devote my time to the tactical radios? Why do they want to keep me around, in airspace that isn’t even in their area of responsibility?

By way of comparison, P50…..PHX Class B….their TRACON doesn’t want to talk to a helo for anything, unless it’s requesting a practice instrument approach that part of it impinges on some part of the Class B. Otherwise, they don’t seemingly want anything to do with us since they are usually busy.

Even PHX tower wants to minimize the comms. A few years back, the oval shape of the Class B surface area that surrounded KPHX, was changed to a “bowtie” shape. That allowed helos and even light fixed wing to fly much closer to the middle of KPHX in the north and south sides of the center of the airport…..below the shelf and almost up to the edge of the airport. For helipads and such located in these areas, this much reduced the radio traffic of helos calling for takeoff and landings from pads that weren’t even physically on the airport, even though there are a few on the sides of the bowtie still, but the workload of PHX tower to VFR helos was greatly reduced.

Why does U90 want to hang on to every VFR helo seemingly; and P50 appears to be not at all be interested in talking to routine helo ops, if at all possible? Such a 180 degree difference in operational philosophy.
They probably have a different agreement.

Anc is relatively complex for a class C and in the area there’s an extremely busy series of airports all with specific local “course rules” and a dedicated FAR. The rules and requirements differ slightly from facility to facility and governed by agreements between the facilities.

I could see there being a LOA between the the tower and departure that requires a handoff.

I remember about 15 years or more ago we had local assigned company squawk codes that stayed the same. Then they went away… then they came back…

If you were using one you HAD to talk to departure and apparently it was a big deal when it was instituted (read lots of Inter-facility politics). Maybe a similar sort of thing - but from what I gather the controllers are limited by their internal course rules a lot more than we are.
 
They probably have a different agreement.

Anc is relatively complex for a class C and in the area there’s an extremely busy series of airports all with specific local “course rules” and a dedicated FAR. The rules and requirements differ slightly from facility to facility and governed by agreements between the facilities.

I could see there being a LOA between the the tower and departure that requires a handoff.

I remember about 15 years or more ago we had local assigned company squawk codes that stayed the same. Then they went away… then they came back…

If you were using one you HAD to talk to departure and apparently it was a big deal when it was instituted (read lots of Inter-facility politics). Maybe a similar sort of thing - but from what I gather the controllers are limited by their internal course rules a lot more than we are.

the interesting thing is if there’s an LOA….there probably is….that individual tower controllers treat it differently. Definitely not standardized.

And the different facilities; U90 requires everyone to call approach first when inbound, even if underneath the shelf. Even though all I ever get is a squawk, a radar contact call, and an immediate handoff to tower. Completely a waste of time in my opinion, especially when the approach controller is already busy in peak times.

then P50. They want you to go direct to tower and expect you to remain under the shelf until contacting tower when nearing the surface area.
 
This is pretty interesting to hear. I'd always wondered why helo pilots talk on ground/tower so very much. Perhaps it is an expectation?

there's really no need for skid helos to contact ground; unless they’re hover taxiing someplace and using taxiways to do it. Otherwise, if an air taxi is available to get from one point to another on an airport much quicker, that’s preferred.

wheeled helos get treated more like airplanes since they have the ability to ground taxi. But still, they’re not heading to a runway for a takeoff unless they’re a heavy helo like a -53, and there’s no “remote” area on the field or pad that they can lift off from without their rotor wash damaging nearby stuff.
 
there's really no need for skid helos to contact ground; unless they’re hover taxiing someplace and using taxiways to do it. Otherwise, if an air taxi is available to get from one point to another on an airport much quicker, that’s preferred.

wheeled helos get treated more like airplanes since they have the ability to ground taxi. But still, they’re not heading to a runway for a takeoff unless they’re a heavy helo like a -53, and there’s no “remote” area on the field or pad that they can lift off from without their rotor wash damaging nearby stuff.

Yeah, I guess it is more the amount of talkie talkie required to coordinate that air taxi to wherever.......or the comms seemingly required for transit with tower. Don't worry, the P-3/P-8 guys are still worse :)
 
the interesting thing is if there’s an LOA….there probably is….that individual tower controllers treat it differently. Definitely not standardized.

And the different facilities; U90 requires everyone to call approach first when inbound, even if underneath the shelf. Even though all I ever get is a squawk, a radar contact call, and an immediate handoff to tower. Completely a waste of time in my opinion, especially when the approach controller is already busy in peak times.

then P50. They want you to go direct to tower and expect you to remain under the shelf until contacting tower when nearing the surface area.
Yah - that does sound problematic.

I would bet this is a “reactionary” repsonse to a series of airspace busts and a little miniature turf war.

ATC is a lot more political than I realized at the time. Later, when we were trying to get an approach commissioned that was actually usable the air force got involved and what a CF that was…
 
the interesting thing is if there’s an LOA….there probably is….that individual tower controllers treat it differently. Definitely not standardized.

when the LOA is in effect could be situational as well based on what flow one airport is on compared to another or active airspace somewhere or something, or coordination happens in the background where some controllers call departure and ask if they want to speak to you and others just send you whether departure wants you or not. Personally I try to pretend I can’t hear helicopters calling me.
 
when the LOA is in effect could be situational as well based on what flow one airport is on compared to another or active airspace somewhere or something, or coordination happens in the background where some controllers call departure and ask if they want to speak to you and others just send you whether departure wants you or not. Personally I try to pretend I can’t hear helicopters calling me.

good points there. Lol…..see no, hear no, helicopters. :)
 
@NovemberEcho your future home. U90

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