Aircraft Down in San Diego (Dec 27)

How did you get through your time at 9E without shooting non vectored visual approaches?

I kind of get you not shooting field in site 30 miles away visuals at VX because of the airports you went to, but I'd guess the Eskimo goes in to plenty of small enough places to call the field and join the pattern.

Most fun I've had in a plane recently was sharing a visual pattern from the downwind with a flight of A10s going into Osan a few months ago.

I dunno. Eskimo just dropped the ban hammer on Alaska VFR routes (and it’s now permanently banned) because some pilot dumbasses had to be dumbasses.

So this is why when I hear circle to land in marginal conditions for 121, my thought is nah.

In the CRJ I don’t recall being made to enter TPA at 1,500 AGL. There was still some vectoring and then call the airport in sight, and then we’d call the airport, cleared visual, land, backed up by an instrument approach.
 
In the CRJ I don’t recall being made to enter TPA at 1,500 AGL. There was still some vectoring and then call the airport in sight, and then we’d call the airport, cleared visual, land, backed up by an instrument approach.

Must have just been an every-small-airport-not-in-the-Norwest/Delta-system thing then. If there's no radar coverage or tracon control late at night, you're either doing a full procedure (and majorly cutting into your reduced rest overnight) or calling the field in sight 20 miles out and entering on a 45 or via the overhead to the downwind and getting to the hotel faster.
 
Having flight instructed in SEE I don't recall ever seeing anyone go in front of the Rattle. So much safer going around. But I've lost how many times I've almost got reamed over the twin peaks from traffic turning base to final on the left side.

I plead the fifth :), though in my hypothetical defense if you're flying an airplane with the glide ratio of the space shuttle and chopping the power at pattern altitude just east of the 67 takes you to a perfect flare at the numbers, it starts to become the truly "safer" (though non-standard) option traffic and ATC permitting (i.e. you aren't cutting anyone off who took the long way around). But further thoughts on "non-standard" procedures below...

Circling NA is a big deal - once while flying medevac to an airport I’d never been to and never had any real briefing on I circled without realizing it was NA at about 3am. I was basically still asleep and entered the downwind like normal and landed.

After a nap in the back of the airplane while waiting for the medics I woke up shortly after sunrise. Looked outside and saw thought about how I’d circled.

“Wow, why is circling permitted at night?!…oh wait it’s not.”

I didn’t hit anything, and never got a terrain alert or anything, I had kept it tight using the TAWS to stay away from the red and yellow, but theoretically if I had strayed slightly outside the circling radius I’d have hit something.

Funny thing was, I knew there was terrain there, I was just insanely tired, on the back side of the clock, and didn’t read the plate as accurate as I should have.

There but for the “Grace of God go I” or whatever. Either circling into a mountain or loss of control on the circle is totally possible… what a bummer.

I appreciate you writing this. I think a lot of professional pilots have these stories they reserve for "over beers" but it seems like a very easy mistake to make especially being fatigued. Flying is an insidious activity because it can be unclear sometimes how dangerous whatever you just did really was or how close you came to death that night vs. an innocent "oops I read the chart wrong, I'll do better next time." For a given procedure there's always a series of "outs" or "offramps" you can take before all the links in the accident chain line up and you are SOL. From an ADM standpoint even in my limited GA flying compared to most of you guys, I've definitely pressed on past a few offramps and boy is that a bad feeling when the hair starts to stand up on the back of your neck and you start to count what options you DO have left. Hopefully the ADM "feedback loop" works for you: You realize you were on a trajectory towards a negative outcome, take an offramp to safety, learn from your experience and try to make better choices next time.

However your story above is a great example of that ADM feedback loop not working, or perhaps being too fatigued to notice the offramps as they pass you by. You do a thing to the best of your ability, it works out for you (that time) and later in hindsight you realize "boy that was sketchy I'm glad that worked out for me, I'll make a more conservative decision next time." But the most insidious in my mind is the "unknown unknown" version, where not only are you doing a more dangerous thing than you realize but the feedback loop is broken so you never find out to correct it. Furthermore pilots learn by example so if the risky thing you're doing (and not realizing is risky) is frequently done by your peers, was TAUGHT to you by an instructor or given to you by your company as SOP, you can potentially be lulled into a false sense of security (appeal to authority fallacy, etc).

A buddy of mine who is currently doing instrument training put it well when he said "Isn't the whole point of the IFR system to standardize everyone's dissimilar equipment and flying styles into a benign form to reduce risk while in IMC?" (think standard rate turns, <1000 fpm level offs, 3° glideslopes, etc.) While it's also to protect you from yourself and reduce the workload burden on the pilot, I do agree with him. So if you or your local pilot group or company SOP is doing something "non-standard" for your operation that nobody else does, it may deserve at least a sanity check to honestly look at whether you really are the exception to the rule or if the risks of what you're doing outweigh the benefits. Comments like @SFCC/UND 's above should trigger that sanity check and some honest introspection, because we all have our blind spots.

All valid and intelligent points, although if runway length is a consideration and their policy or minimum number is 5k or better - the options in greater San Diego are reduced. You’re down to SAN, SEE, and SDM. CRQ is less than 5k, and RNM is right at 5k. Of those three with adequate length, now you’ll have to look at legal weather for 135 and approaches plus runway lengths with safety margins. Next up is the possibility of company pressure with something as simple as fees and fuel prices. Believe it or not, but people still avoid diverting due to fuel prices or facility fees - CAA fuel pricing is enough to influence the decision making process.

Very good points I hadn't considered since both MYF and CRQ are busy with jet traffic on clear and non-runway contaminated days. With west winds neither RNM or SDM have straight in approaches from the west due to terrain, so both force you to circle. However both SDM and RNM have lower Cat C circling minimums than Gillespie does, and in both cases the circling maneuver is less scary as it is just a regular traffic pattern (with no 1200 ft mountain 3000 ft from the end of the runway). CRQ is pretty temping with the ILS Rwy 24 and the 4900 ft almost long enough runway if your numbers said you could get away with it, but it's also on top of a hill with those sweet embankments on both ends. If you wanted a straight-in precision approach to a runway >5000 ft you're basically pigeonholed into SAN and a large bill from Signature. But I think there's a time and a place for that. Maybe I wouldn't make it in part 135. :)

For the record I'm not typing this out to second guess the actions of the crew, but it's a very helpful thought experiment to see how quickly you run out of good options due to weather and operational requirements in a city that is seemingly full of alternate airports.

The company is based at KSEE.

Good point and there would certainly be pressure to bring the airplane home for the night, but see above.

Must have just been an every-small-airport-not-in-the-Norwest/Delta-system thing then. If there's no radar coverage or tracon control late at night, you're either doing a full procedure (and majorly cutting into your reduced rest overnight) or calling the field in sight 20 miles out and entering on a 45 or via the overhead to the downwind and getting to the hotel faster.

Even baby-Eskimo (Horizon) does a ton of this type of flying. When arriving at STS from the south for example they always get "Cleared visual, contact tower" and 50% of the time tower gives them right traffic for runway 14.
 
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Must have just been an every-small-airport-not-in-the-Norwest/Delta-system thing then. If there's no radar coverage or tracon control late at night, you're either doing a full procedure (and majorly cutting into your reduced rest overnight) or calling the field in sight 20 miles out and entering on a 45 or via the overhead to the downwind and getting to the hotel faster.

Agreed. I don’t know how many times I flew full visual patterns in the CRJ, but it was definitely in the hundreds and the altitude entry was 1,500’ AGL. I flew mostly out west and the Midwest, so lots and lots of small airports. We did a few circles too, and in fact was specifically trained in the sim for the EGE circle to R07.
 
I plead the fifth :), though in my hypothetical defense if you're flying an airplane with the glide ratio of the space shuttle and chopping the power at pattern altitude just east of the 67 takes you to a perfect flare at the numbers, it starts to become the truly "safer" (though non-standard) option traffic and ATC permitting (i.e. you aren't cutting anyone off who took the long way around). But further thoughts on "non-standard" procedures below...



I appreciate you writing this. I think a lot of professional pilots have these stories they reserve for "over beers" but it seems like a very easy mistake to make especially being fatigued. Flying is an insidious activity because it can be unclear sometimes how dangerous whatever you just did really was or how close you came to death that night vs. an innocent "oops I read the chart wrong, I'll do better next time." For a given procedure there's always a series of "outs" or "offramps" you can take before all the links in the accident chain line up and you are SOL. From an ADM standpoint even in my limited GA flying compared to most of you guys, I've definitely pressed on past a few offramps and boy is that a bad feeling when the hair starts to stand up on the back of your neck and you start to count what options you DO have left. Hopefully the ADM "feedback loop" works for you: You realize you were on a trajectory towards a negative outcome, take an offramp to safety, learn from your experience and try to make better choices next time.

However your story above is a great example of that ADM feedback loop not working, or perhaps being too fatigued to notice the offramps as they pass you by. You do a thing to the best of your ability, it works out for you (that time) and later in hindsight you realize "boy that was sketchy I'm glad that worked out for me, I'll make a more conservative decision next time." But the most insidious in my mind is the "unknown unknown" version, where not only are you doing a more dangerous thing than you realize but the feedback loop is broken so you never find out to correct it. Furthermore pilots learn by example so if the risky thing you're doing (and not realizing is risky) is frequently done by your peers, was TAUGHT to you by an instructor or given to you by your company as SOP, you can potentially be lulled into a false sense of security (appeal to authority fallacy, etc).

A buddy of mine who is currently doing instrument training put it well when he said "Isn't the whole point of the IFR system to standardize everyone's dissimilar equipment and flying styles into a benign form to reduce risk while in IMC?" (think standard rate turns, <1000 fpm level offs, 3° glideslopes, etc.) While it's also to protect you from yourself and reduce the workload burden on the pilot, I do agree with him. So if you or your local pilot group or company SOP is doing something "non-standard" for your operation that nobody else does, it may deserve at least a sanity check to honestly look at whether you really are the exception to the rule or if the risks of what you're doing outweigh the benefits. Comments like @SFCC/UND 's above should trigger that sanity check and some honest introspection, because we all have our blind spots.



Very good points I hadn't considered since both MYF and CRQ are busy with jet traffic on clear and non-runway contaminated days. With west winds neither RNM or SDM have straight in approaches from the west due to terrain, so both force you to circle. However both SDM and RNM have lower Cat C circling minimums than Gillespie does, and in both cases the circling maneuver is less scary as it is just a regular traffic pattern (with no 1200 ft mountain 3000 ft from the end of the runway). CRQ is pretty temping with the ILS Rwy 24 and the 4900 ft almost long enough runway if your numbers said you could get away with it, but it's also on top of a hill with those sweet embankments on both ends. If you wanted a straight-in precision approach to a runway >5000 ft you're basically pigeonholed into SAN and a large bill from Signature. But I think there's a time and a place for that. Maybe I wouldn't make it in part 135. :)

For the record I'm not typing this out to second guess the actions of the crew, but it's a very helpful thought experiment to see how quickly you run out of good options due to weather and operational requirements in a city that is seemingly full of alternate airports.



Good point and there would certainly be pressure to bring the airplane home for the night, but see above.



Even baby-Eskimo (Horizon) does a ton of this type of flying. When arriving at STS from the south for example they always get "Cleared visual, contact tower" and 50% of the time tower gives them right traffic for runway 14.
Agreed. I don’t know how many times I flew full visual patterns in the CRJ, but it was definitely in the hundreds and the altitude entry was 1,500’ AGL. I flew mostly out west and the Midwest, so lots and lots of small airports. We did a few circles too, and in fact was specifically trained in the sim for the EGE circle to R07.

I think maybe there’s just more of this on the west coast due to the lack of “big” airports. I was DTW flights and lot of flights were to places like GRR, CLE, PIT, CVG, etc.

I remember being vectored and some combination of being near the FAF and asked, airport at your whatever o’clock, and we call it in sight and cleared visual approach.

Even now the closest example of a downwind entry would be like at GEG but we are much higher than 1,500 abeam the runway and approach control takes us out some ways to join us back towards final.

Night time tower closed somewhere? I’ll ask approach/center for vectors. If they’re lazy, I’ll take the full approach procedure from some far away IAF if I have to. I don’t mind the extra minute or two. Seen too many FOQA videos of stuff gone wrong at night.
 
Circling NA is a big deal - once while flying medevac to an airport I’d never been to and never had any real briefing on I circled without realizing it was NA at about 3am. I was basically still asleep and entered the downwind like normal and landed.

After a nap in the back of the airplane while waiting for the medics I woke up shortly after sunrise. Looked outside and saw thought about how I’d circled.

“Wow, why is circling permitted at night?!…oh wait it’s not.”

I didn’t hit anything, and never got a terrain alert or anything, I had kept it tight using the TAWS to stay away from the red and yellow, but theoretically if I had strayed slightly outside the circling radius I’d have hit something.

Funny thing was, I knew there was terrain there, I was just insanely tired, on the back side of the clock, and didn’t read the plate as accurate as I should have.

There but for the “Grace of God go I” or whatever. Either circling into a mountain or loss of control on the circle is totally possible… what a bummer.
Yup insanely tired sucks. BTDT, and got the same sorta stories.
 
Yup insanely tired sucks. BTDT, and got the same sorta stories.

I think we should tell these stories instead of pretending they only happen to doofuses and crappy pilots. I am • yes, but literally one of the best pilots I know nearly cfit one dark night out of Nome where he didn’t read the notam (VOR at his destination was OTS), and another extraordinary aviator didn’t double check his autopilot mode selector and got quite a long way off course (heading mode instead of GPS) before he realized what happens and surreptitiously returned to a direct heading (center either didn’t notice or didn’t care). I got so distracted trying to set up the FMS single pilot (tired, bumpy, and numerous complicated changes by approach) that I let my speed decay enough to trigger the shaker in the PC12 - just set slightly too low a power setting while I was head down, and stayed programming too long. Immediately realized it but it was very embarrassing- especially when I explained it to my boss. Another guy I knew out west nearly died when he balled up a caravan in an accelerated stall - great dude, good pilot, simply pulled slightly too hard while the flaps we’re retracting during a messed up tower given early turn after for traffic. Thank god he lived, but the idea that any of us are immune or somehow impervious to stuff like this is pretty arrogant in my opinion. We are all one step away from calamity. A tiny bit of inattentiveness or neglect at precisely the wrong time and anyone of us could be screaming before impact on frequency.

Well, not me anymore but you get the picture.
 
@Adler and I used to do circle to lands all the time in the 727 in Saltillo, Mexico (MMIO). Terrain, language barrier, and weather every time. Just like anything, they can be done safely if you practice them enough.
 
Without commenting on the above episode, sometimes it's just better to hit the Easy Button, no matter what the weather is saying.

"Approach, request vectors to the approach"
 
Nothing gets past them
 

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Agreed. I don’t know how many times I flew full visual patterns in the CRJ, but it was definitely in the hundreds and the altitude entry was 1,500’ AGL. I flew mostly out west and the Midwest, so lots and lots of small airports. We did a few circles too, and in fact was specifically trained in the sim for the EGE circle to R07.
Was that EGE circle in the sim a CRJ deal? I only ask because I am EGE qualified in the airbus but never did anything in the sim. In fact my EGE qualification was done by observing from the jumpseat.
 
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