Timing is Everything....Next Up....

[killbilly]

There have been a lot of posts about timing in the airline industry, especially lately. But I also remember them from when I joined this community some 15 years ago.

15 years. Wow. Where were you 15 years ago?

I'm about 250-ish from ATP minimums and trying to figure out my timing about applications. Been doing the homework and crunching the numbers. Family is on board. We can make this work.

I would like to keep CFI'ing part time if possible, but I know some airlines don't allow that. That is a secondary concern.

Besides the timing, and the obvious home/logistical things, what should I be thinking about in the next 9-10 months as I close in on ATP mins? I know I want to prioritize trying to live in base. I know bases open and close all the time and it's a roll of the dice, but living where I live, I figure there are multiple options that help those odds. (DC area) I know I want to complete my degree in the next couple of years.

What else should I be thinking about?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

15 years ago was 2006/2007. I had been a corporate pilot for Walmart for about 2 years, after fumbling through a number of post 9/11 furloughs. I felt as though the job was the best kept secret in aviation. It was mostly Monday through Friday flying with very few overnights and virtually no holidays. In the summer of 2007 I was given the "take it or leave it, no kidding this time" recall to US Airways. Our son was just over a year old and the thought of commuting from Arkansas to Philly (even temporarily) and missing out on first steps... first words... while I sat in a crashpad in Philly made the decision to stay seem clear. The fact that US Airways, whose future had always looked tenuous after the failed United merger attempt, had closed the PIT hub galvanized the decision for me. I turned them down.

It was the one and only decision in my career that I would definitely have done differently if I had the chance to go back and do it over again.

So, back to Killbilly's question. My advice for young pilots is (in learning from my own mistakes) seniority is everything. Absolutely focus on companies that are near where you currently are living. But then I would look aggressively at regionals with the quickest upgrade - understanding that these are typically not the best regionals with the best contracts!! There's a reason that they are a revolving door. Get in, do your time, and get out - preferably quicker than everyone else.

Ideally you want to hit the pilot shortage while the iron is hot and not be on the trailing edge. That might mean making some short term sacrifices for long term reward.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Living in base will certainly make things more enjoyable for you. If all things are equal though, try to find out about the quality of training at each potential place. The job isn’t rocket surgery, but it can certainly feel like it with poor instructing and shifting expectations.

Good luck! Excited for you!

 

[Ian_J]

There have been a lot of posts about timing in the airline industry, especially lately. But I also remember them from when I joined this community some 15 years ago.

15 years. Wow. Where were you 15 years ago?

I'm about 250-ish from ATP minimums and trying to figure out my timing about applications. Been doing the homework and crunching the numbers. Family is on board. We can make this work.

I would like to keep CFI'ing part time if possible, but I know some airlines don't allow that. That is a secondary concern.

Besides the timing, and the obvious home/logistical things, what should I be thinking about in the next 9-10 months as I close in on ATP mins? I know I want to prioritize trying to live in base. I know bases open and close all the time and it's a roll of the dice, but living where I live, I figure there are multiple options that help those odds. (DC area) I know I want to complete my degree in the next couple of years.

What else should I be thinking about?

I'll add that while home basing would be preferred - if the best airline fit for you happened to be NY-centric, it's relatively easy to commute to NYC from DC.

Also, once you get on with a place, you've already done a fantastic job networking and I'm betting it wouldn't be terribly long for you to move up a rung if the current hiring environment holds on for a few years. Good luck and get those hours sooner than later!

 

[killbilly]

Living in base will certainly make things more enjoyable for you. If all things are equal though, try to find out about the quality of training at each potential place. The job isn’t rocket surgery, but it can certainly feel like it with poor instructing and shifting expectations.

Good luck! Excited for you!

How does one find out about quality of training? Word of mouth?

I mean, it's not like a recruiter is going to say, "Our airline is awesome but our training sucks."

 

[Screaming_Emu]

How does one find out about quality of training? Word of mouth?

I mean, it's not like a recruiter is going to say, "Our airline is awesome but our training sucks."

Networking!

 

[Murdoughnut]

Are there any lifer regional pilots on here? I only ask because whenever I toy with the idea of going to the airline in my mid-40s as a mid-life "I've made plenty of money, now I want do something I enjoy" gig, the thought of riding out my career left seat in an RJ at a base where I want to live sounds far more appealing than right seat at a major for most of the remainder of my career. I get it when you're 22 and have a butt ton of loans to pay off, but that wouldn't be my situation.

I've certainly ridden on RJs with up there in age Captains - anyone on here do it, and if so, why? Would rather do that and have a CLT base than ever have to commute.

 

[flyinggreasemnky]

How does one find out about quality of training? Word of mouth?

I mean, it's not like a recruiter is going to say, "Our airline is awesome but our training sucks."

Honestly, there really aren't major differences between the regional training departments. I didn't notice a difference in training departments until I went to an ACMI. The ACMI didn't train so much as test everyday and you were very much on your own even though its supposed to be AQP. The three regionals I was at all were very straight forward even before they switched to AQP. They all understand you are new and want you to succeed. As long as they can tell you are trying and putting in the work, they will help you. There is definitely a difference once you get to places like the legacies or purple/brown but they also know you are experienced before you show up and just need to learn their ways of doing things. Its much more laid back.

BTW, how far are you from JYO?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Are there any lifer regional pilots on here? I only ask because whenever I toy with the idea of going to the airline in my mid-40s as a mid-life "I've made plenty of money, now I want do something I enjoy" gig, the thought of riding out my career left seat in an RJ at a base where I want to live sounds far more appealing than right seat at a major for most of the remainder of my career. I get it when you're 22 and have a butt ton of loans to pay off, but that wouldn't be my situation.

I've certainly ridden on RJs with up there in age Captains - anyone on here do it, and if so, why? Would rather do that and have a CLT base than ever have to commute.

Unless you’ve got some egotistical attachment to being a Captain (not recommended), your life is going to be a LOT better as a major FO than as an RJ captain.

Take it from someone who’s had both jobs.

 

[killbilly]

Honestly, there really aren't major differences between the regional training departments. I didn't notice a difference in training departments until I went to an ACMI. The ACMI didn't train so much as test everyday and you were very much on your own even though its supposed to be AQP. The three regionals I was at all were very straight forward even before they switched to AQP. They all understand you are new and want you to succeed. As long as they can tell you are trying and putting in the work, they will help you. There is definitely a difference once you get to places like the legacies or purple/brown but they also know you are experienced before you show up and just need to learn their ways of doing things. Its much more laid back.

BTW, how far are you from JYO?

I currently instruct at JYO. I'm there almost daily.

 

[zmiller4]

There have been a lot of posts about timing in the airline industry, especially lately. But I also remember them from when I joined this community some 15 years ago.

15 years. Wow. Where were you 15 years ago?

I'm about 250-ish from ATP minimums and trying to figure out my timing about applications. Been doing the homework and crunching the numbers. Family is on board. We can make this work.

I would like to keep CFI'ing part time if possible, but I know some airlines don't allow that. That is a secondary concern.

Besides the timing, and the obvious home/logistical things, what should I be thinking about in the next 9-10 months as I close in on ATP mins? I know I want to prioritize trying to live in base. I know bases open and close all the time and it's a roll of the dice, but living where I live, I figure there are multiple options that help those odds. (DC area) I know I want to complete my degree in the next couple of years.

What else should I be thinking about?

Without knowing your home/personal life situation, I guess I might visit how firm you want to be on a “live in base” decision. I spent most of my airline career commuting…some of it was miserable, but for some of it I was about as healthy and happy as I’ve ever been. There are plenty of bases out there that have mostly longer trips, so a relatively easy commute doesn’t add that much time away. But as @ZapBrannigan said, commuting if you have young children would be terrible (I quit the industry in part to avoid that). And it also depends a ton on what your relationship with your spouse/family is like. They’re going to have to be ok with you being gone…some people aren’t, some people are. Neither outlook is wrong.

And if you’re open to commuting from DC, that brings pretty much every regional into the equation, which allows you to think about pay, rules, upgrade times etc and the training that @Screaming_Emu mentioned. Training at regionals was quite different 10yrs ago; don’t know about now.

You mentioned a degree—if you don’t have a BS/BA, it prioritize that for sure.

Unless you’ve got some egotistical attachment to being a Captain (not recommended), your life is going to be a LOT better as a major FO than as an RJ captain.

Take it from someone who’s had both jobs.

I’m good friends with someone who has been at one of your former airlines for 16yrs and their life is at least as good from a QOL and pay standpoint as a lot of legacy FO’s. Common? Probably not, but attainable? Sure!

 

[Murdoughnut]

Unless you’ve got some egotistical attachment to being a Captain (not recommended), your life is going to be a LOT better as a major FO than as an RJ captain.

Take it from someone who’s had both jobs.

Certainly don't have your perspective, but less about being a Captain and more about being in a leadership role - be it training, corporate, etc. Knowing me, I'd get bored with just flying and would be looking for something with more involvement in planning and corporate matters. Also the idea of being a training Captain doing IOE trips interests me. Not sure how many opportunities there are as a 10-year + mainline FO.

 

[Murdoughnut]

And sorry, wasn't trying to hijack the OP's questions - just have similar ones (though further off)

 

[Old Pete]

How does one find out about quality of training? Word of mouth?

I mean, it's not like a recruiter is going to say, "Our airline is awesome but our training sucks."

Yes, and even on this forum you read things. I remember reading horror stories about a guy in the training department at Pinnacle c2008-2014 that would turn on you and fail you for no apparent reason and I think PSA had a guy that made the forum. But mostly word of mouth, most part 121 training programs are similar, or at least as consistent as the FAA is.

 

[zmiller4]

Knowing me, I'd get bored with just flying and would be looking for something with more involvement in planning and corporate matters.

Leading camping retreats for recruits/cadets is apparently an option!

But seriously, I flew with a lot of guys in their 50’s who were making well over $100k a year with good schedules. If your retirement and educational planning are solid, I think regional airlines as a career destination isn’t a bad goal at all.

 

[Box hauler]

Certainly don't have your perspective, but less about being a Captain and more about being in a leadership role - be it training, corporate, etc. Knowing me, I'd get bored with just flying and would be looking for something with more involvement in planning and corporate matters. Also the idea of being a training Captain doing IOE trips interests me. Not sure how many opportunities there are as a 10-year + mainline FO.

It all depends on where you go and when. Why not go to a major and try to hop in the training department as a FO? Not sure how all of the majors work but at Yellow we have some fairly junior FO’s who are sim instructors. IMO, people who haven’t worked for a legacy, major or LCC don’t really know what their missing out on. Maybe it’s not for everyone but there are some major advantages other than money to working at a stand alone carrier. QOL, work rules, direct 401k , better equipment and support etc. I can literally drop my entire schedule and sit at home all month if I choose. Can’t think of a regional that allows for that.

 

[bLizZuE]

October 2006 I was finishing up my commercial at FlightSafety.

Apply before you’re ready. Prepare for your interview now. Get letters of recommendation from peers and mentors now. Instructors that worked with you. Coworkers. Supervisors.

Don’t forget to prepare HR questions. I interviewed at Colgan in 2008 and pretty much bombed because I didn’t practice any HR questions. I learned a lot from failing that interview, but if you can skip that part, I recommend it.

Do your own homework on what shop you want to work at. You don’t really need to read the contract but get an idea of the differences outside of the pay rate. If you know your domicile preference that makes this part pretty easy.

Make sure you can afford to live on guarantee. I left a CFI gig in 2010 and didn’t even think about what 25 bucks an hour at reserve guarantee was. It wasn’t enough and I struggled. Market is a little different now with bonuses but understand that those can end at any time as they are pre-employment bonuses and are not part of the contract

You probably won’t be able to CFI on the side as it’s part of your flight time limits.

 

[Richman]

Disagree about the commuting thing, and this is someone whose done it for 20 years.

No matter how pleasant and easy, it is a time & worry sink. Even if it’s just inches, add them up over the years, and it’s a LOT of inches.

And life is a game of inches.

 

[bLizZuE]

Certainly don't have your perspective, but less about being a Captain and more about being in a leadership role - be it training, corporate, etc. Knowing me, I'd get bored with just flying and would be looking for something with more involvement in planning and corporate matters. Also the idea of being a training Captain doing IOE trips interests me. Not sure how many opportunities there are as a 10-year + mainline FO.

If you get bored flying, I might have bad news about airline flying.

 

[JordanD]

If you get bored flying, I might have bad news about airline flying.

"Boring" is good, in a sense. But I can only see Orlando and the Newark airport hotel so many times before I want to scream. Shooting the visual into SBA doesn't happen a whole lot these days.