Paying your dues???

[slushie]

Yeah that pay is pretty low. Everyone is low-balling right now, even on the top end of the market, but those days will be gone within the year most likely.

Low time, non instructor jobs all suck in one way or another. Boutique was a [emoji90] show but at least I made a lot of money dead heading around the country.

Find some current pilots at this place and find out if there’s any way to make above minimum pay. That may change the equation.

 

[killbilly]

@Maximilian_Jenius it's time to have a no BS discussion with yourself about your options, flight instructing, and what you are worth.

I totally get that you don't want to instruct, and while I feel like pilots who haven't instructed are missing a pretty key part of being a PIC, sometimes they manage to pick up those skills elsewhere. I'd again advise you to look in to places that you can get your CFI rating, and then get paid to instruct (and make "ok") money.

If your goal is getting to the regionals as fast as possible, what you do right now doesn't matter. It's all about getting to 1500.

Taking a job sitting in the right seat of a Caravan will (depending on the company) probably build your CRM skills and two pilot cockpit skills. It may or may not build up your decision making and IFR skills (which is what really matters right now). You've just got to ask yourself if doing it for a stupidly low amount of pay is worth it. It sounds like you are willing to move to pretty much anywhere for a while, which is good. That opens up your options for finding better options that the lowest bottom feeder out there.

That said, the Southern Airways Express guys that I know that fly for Mokulele are pretty happy, minus the pay.

Remember... getting to the shiny RJ quickly is fine. Taking shortcuts is less fine.

If @BobDDuck hadn't written this I would have.

I've said before that I was a bit leery of instructing. It was some heavy encouragement from Hook_Dupin and @bucksmith that got me to go ahead and try it - I figured I'd know early on if I would be a good CFI or know that I was just phoning it in, and I could get out if I needed to. CFI just isn't that expensive to obtain. Indeed - it's the lowest-cost certificate to achieve.

I ended up not only liking it, but loving it. Flight instruction is something I'm going to continue to do as long as "they" allow me to do it, because there are few things I've found as personally satisfying as helping someone re-wire their lives by learning to fly. Maybe I'd feel differently if I had kids. I don't know. But I feel like I'm helping make someone's life better by teaching.

This is just my own wiring speaking, but I'm closer to your age than a lot of people around here - It took me a while to understand - I mean, I knew - but to understand - that this flying this is a continuous journey. Not a destination. The second it becomes a destination, it ceases to have meaning for me, because I find the path of striving for continuous improvement the only way to justify the sacrifices and expense. If - the way I'm wired - I saw it as a destination, I would likely lose my appreciation for it. And then it would be just another job. And I don't want that. Maybe you think that way, maybe you don't. You said you wanted perspectives.

I may make it to an airline, I may not. What this process has ultimately taught me is what I value. A "job" will be a time-filler as I evolve as an airman and human.

Does that make sense?

 

[A300Capt]

With all due respect...I can’t think of anything more worthless than SIC time in a Caravan for future employment. Yep, there are exceptions to the rule and folks have moved on to better jobs afterwards, but you’re basically just warming the right seat of an oversized C172 (slow, single eng, fixed gear etc..). Most freight outfits fly it single pilot.

You need multi time if you want to move up....otherwise you’ll just be going sideways. While you’re totally against the idea, and as others have said, I think getting a CFI and MEI would be the fastest way to get the job you eventually want.

 

[Crockrocket94]

There is paying your dues, and there is making it hard on yourself. Man, that pay is horrible and if you don't have to take it, there are definitely better options out there. Can you move? Are you open to opportunities?

 

[inigo88]

Paying your dues is usually instructing all the way until the 1500 hrs or at least the ~1200 hr or so part 135 IFR mins. There’s other cool stuff you can do while low time to build hours, but it usually comes with a big sacrifice (low pay, being on the road most of the year for survey, etc). If your flight school debt is so high that you can’t pay the bills instructing, you definitely won’t be able to swing the Caravan SIC pay as you’ve already pointed out.

The comment about the flight school culture in your area and how they want their students to quit their jobs and study 6 hours a day at the airport also pisses me off. They are a business, providing a service in exchange for money. While it’s disrespectful to their time if a student shows up never prepared or studied, it’s also completely inappropriate of them to expect students to not have a life and responsibilities outside of pilot training.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Ditch the high priced pilot mill academy type flight school and find a mom and pop Part 61 school in your area. Find an instructor you connect with (will take multiple tries) and who is willing to work with you after work or just on the weekends, at your pace. Continue working your day job and make the time after work to study sometimes. Fly with this instructor once a week (or two) or however much you can afford, without going into more debt. Progress will be incremental and frustrating at times but you will eventually get it done.

This is probably not the answer you want to hear, but is the reality of pilot training if you don’t already have wealth or all the money saved up front. Especially in a career that doesn’t have great return on investment until you get to the majors, which depending on luck, timing and the state of the economy may be quick or may take a “lost decade”.

In my experience the more you study and chair fly, practice in flight sim on the computer, etc in your spare time, the better progress you’ll make despite the infrequent lessons.

Good luck on whatever you decide!

 

[bLizZuE]

Just because a school says you shouldn’t work while working on a rating doesn’t mean you have to quit your job to work on a rating.

If you’re flying to stay current now, fly with a CFI and work on your CFI. It sounds like there are CFI gigs out there that pay more than this other place you’re looking at.

I learned a lot getting my CFI, I learned a lot more teaching. It’s worth it in my opinion.

I don’t know if you can find a place that will pay for your CFI rating once you get it but that’s what FlightSafety did/does/might still do.

 

[Old Pete]

Here’s may take. You meet the minimum requirements to get this flying job. Apply for it and take it if offered, your goal is to get to 1500hrs and be eligible for a part 121 airline.
You don’t have a CFI certificate. So that’s not an option. I assume you’ve put a lot of time and money to make this transition.
In for a penny in for a pound. I also presume you don’t have a full time pilot job now. You’ve got to jump in with both feet.
While I agree with the comments about the CFI time being valuable, SEL FO time not being impressive, this can be really valuable experience.
Good luck.

 

[NovemberEcho]

I’ll give you $8/hr to sit right seat when I fly the clubs 172 and take flattering pics of me for my Insta

 

[JDean3204]

@Maximilian_Jenius
What is your TT? I can reach out to a contact at Boutique to see if he can help in any way or atleast let me know when they plan on hiring again. It’s been a few years since I’ve talked with him, but last I heard he was the CP for the PDX base. PM me if you feel more comfortable continuing this potential route.

 

[Kingairer]

Couple of things...I think you should get your CFI even if you dont plan on using it. Its the most difficult certification to get IMO and *should* be a minimum qualification for advancement for a civilian. 2nd) I also wouldnt worry much about perceptions of taking a job that people feel isnt worthy. I can remember back in the soap opera regional airline contract days, people on here (myself included) felt that going to somewhere like goJet would be a kiss of death for future hiring. Similarly somewhere like gulfstream. The reality is, no one who is actually responsible for hiring is going to care about regional airline politics and passing up on opportunities to advance your career will only hurt you. With this job, at the very least, youll have experience of flying in real world condition, in IMC, on a schedule with a crew and I think that counts for something.

 

[statusseeker1]

Don’t take a job that won’t pay your bills. If no one applies for and accepts jobs like this, they will either: go away because the airline closes, or the airline will have to increase compensation to fill the seat.

 

[MikeD]

Couple of things...I think you should get your CFI even if you dont plan on using it. Its the most difficult certification to get IMO and *should* be a minimum qualification for advancement for a civilian. 2nd) I also wouldnt worry much about perceptions of taking a job that people feel isnt worthy. I can remember back in the soap opera regional airline contract days, people on here (myself included) felt that going to somewhere like goJet would be a kiss of death for future hiring. Similarly somewhere like gulfstream. The reality is, no one who is actually responsible for hiring is going to care about regional airline politics and passing up on opportunities to advance your career will only hurt you. With this job, at the very least, youll have experience of flying in real world condition, in IMC, on a schedule with a crew and I think that counts for something.

Remember the whole “don’t chase upgrades!!!” and “never go to these places!” Mantra of the resident brain trust here back in the 2000s? Truth is, there are lots of successful GoJet, Freedom A, Gulfstream, etc, people out there today. Because you’re right, no one up higher really cares about those politics.

 

[Flyinthrew]

Southern Airways Exp. Is hiring, and I'm strongly considering applying. They're similar to say Boutique Air. The mins. are 500 tt. with CSEL and instrument rating. Flying a Caravan sic. I check all the boxes. I've always heard that this shop was good for low-time pilots. You build hours fast and get A LOT of experience into airports big and small and flying approaches/arrivals. And of course, weather. They have bases all over the south and the Midwest, with their biggest at DFW.

The problem. The pay. $12 per block hours the first 6 months. $18-21 per block hours afterwards w/ a 57 hr. guarantee. So maybe $10k first year and maybe $800 a month.

Yikes!

Sounds like they're low balling, low time guys in the current climate, because they can.

All that aside, opinions? Good, bad. Pass.

You got to be •ting me. That pay is too low. $12 per block hour. TWELVE DOLLARS AN HOUR. That's not paying dues. It's screwing the 19 and 20 year olds who have never had a real job out of a pay check.

You would actually come out ahead if you get LITERALLY any other adult job, join a flying club or buy a simple airplane with 2 or 3 other people, and fly around with a partner for 60 hours a month building time. Fly far. Fly in weather. Fly at night. Fly to Class B megaplexes. Whatever you want to broaden your horizons. • seriously.

TWELVE DOLLARS. GTFO.

 

[thehobbit]

Southern Airways Exp. Is hiring, and I'm strongly considering applying. They're similar to say Boutique Air. The mins. are 500 tt. with CSEL and instrument rating. Flying a Caravan sic. I check all the boxes. I've always heard that this shop was good for low-time pilots. You build hours fast and get A LOT of experience into airports big and small and flying approaches/arrivals. And of course, weather. They have bases all over the south and the Midwest, with their biggest at DFW.

The problem. The pay. $12 per block hours the first 6 months. $18-21 per block hours afterwards w/ a 57 hr. guarantee. So maybe $10k first year and maybe $800 a month.

Yikes!

Sounds like they're low balling, low time guys in the current climate, because they can.

All that aside, opinions? Good, bad. Pass.

American Patrols, Inc. Careers | The Applicant Manager

American patrols is hiring. Just need 400tt, stay for a year and move to midland. $23 an hour, $35000 a year and they pay for half of the health insurance premium. I don't know how far $35000 will get you in midland, but it's got to be better than living in Hawaii on what they offer.

 

[woodreau]

I can’t speak about the airline. Nor it’s $12/hour....

however this airline is flying the same routes my first airline flew... so I guess it’s the successor to my first airline?

my first few bases of 10 bases were Jonesboro AR, Harrison AR, Lancaster PA.

it paid $18/hour with a 70hr guarantee. that was 16 years ago.

guarantee was 70 hrs, but lines were built to 120hrs/month using scheduled 135 FTDT rules. So my takehome pay at $18/hr going to training straight to a line ($18x120) = $2160 was comparable to new hire regional pilots that went to the larger jet regionals that paid $23/hr to fly a CRJ-200 and sat reserve. $23x75 Hrs =1725. reserve guarantee.
everyone who started had the seniority as a new hire to be a captain / PIC, so as soon as everyone got their 1500 hrs, they got awarded upgrade.... as soon as they got their 1000 PIC they went elsewhere. Usually to another regional or a LCC. That was the only thing that made my first airline desirable the fact that there was constant movement. There were no lifers....

i was paid $15000 my first 7 months as FO, then I upgraded and got paid a whole $8 more To be a captain. $26x120hrs = 3120/month as a first year captain. So $30600 first year gross wages and 1250 hrs total time for the first year at my first regioral airline. Second year pay went up to $32 for 2d Year captain so $46000 second year and another 1300 more hours and I left to go to one of the more traditiknal regionals to start all over again...

however today is a different world..... and why my first regional airline and Great Lakes no longer exist....
the jet regionals today pay a lot more. this outfit pays a whole lot less.

if this is a place you are seriously considering, you should be asking, how much flying is going to be done each month?

You meet 135 VFR mins, can you move immediately to the PIC seat once you reach 135 PIC mins? Get whatever time you need to move on to another regional or other flying job.
where do they get their PIC pilots?

at the most - this is a time building place like my first regional... it’s not a career destination.

but from what I understand you are an older person, so you don’t really have the luxury of starting over at the bottom of a seniority list several times like a younger person would.

you can answer whether that is worth it or not.

edit: flying 120/hrs a month sucked though. By the time I got to days off I didn’t want to be in any airplane anymore.

 

[MikeD]

It’s too bad that AirCSI and US Delivery don’t exist anymore, @Maximilian_Jenius could’ve flown for them, in base, and made fairly respectable $$$.

 

[EIR]

Nope this is not "paying your dues." You won't be making enough money to put food on your table and right seat time in a glorified 172 is essentially worthless.

If CFI'ing isn't your thing, I'd suggest banner/glider towing, jumpers or pipeline. You'll build great stick and skills. Banner towing was the best job I never want to do again. The money was pretty good as well.

 

[Hiboglossi]

I guess things have changed on here- I remember a few years ago someone bragged about working for free at an aerial survey company to build twin time, and everyone thought that was a good idea.

I have to admit I don't see this a shortcut either. It could even be good experience, like @JDean3204 said about IFR ropes. I was thinking that since so many people on here feel this is an inappropriate shortcut and that instructing is the way, the truth and the life, interviewers at future jobs potentially could. But I reckon Kingairer is right:

2nd) I also wouldnt worry much about perceptions of taking a job that people feel isnt worthy. I can remember back in the soap opera regional airline contract days, people on here (myself included) felt that going to somewhere like goJet would be a kiss of death for future hiring. Similarly somewhere like gulfstream. The reality is, no one who is actually responsible for hiring is going to care about regional airline politics and passing up on opportunities to advance your career will only hurt you. With this job, at the very least, youll have experience of flying in real world condition, in IMC, on a schedule with a crew and I think that counts for something.

With how bad the pay is I suppose you could argue going to Southern puts downward pressure on pilot compensation or "brings down the profession" but from what others have said it's only a little worse than other 135 2-pilot operators, plus if people are arguing it's useless time I don't think there's a good case for that. I suppose another issue whether you'd have the time and funds to get your multi-engine rating while at Southern.

I feel that COVID really set me back, it set everyone back. Had COVID not happened, I probably would have been starting at a regional this fall. I actually had a job right out of training flying a 172 in UT. doing aerial survey. Well, I should say that I interviewed, was offered the job then had it rescinded shortly afterwards due to COVID, before I could start training. I feel that I only have 4-5 yrs. at my age to build the necessary hours, to make it to a regional and then get to the next level LCC/ULCC, ACMI or (doubtful) a legacy and still have 15-20 yrs. left to make a good living, not having to continue to work as hard as I am now, and always have, while continuing saving for retirement. So, I feel especially under the gun. Oh man, if I can get a do over and be 18-20 yrs. old again not be dealing with all the emotional, identity and traumatic • that I was dealing with from 18-32. . . What's the going rate for selling your soul these days? Ha!

Aerial survey still seems like it could be a great option for you. I don't know if any survey companies are hiring right now, and hiring tends to be very seasonal. But with more and more regionals hiring again there's hope the survey companies might begin hiring this year as well.

Remember the whole “don’t chase upgrades!!!” Mantra of the resident brain trust here back in the 2000s? Truth is, there are lots of successful GoJet, Freedom A, Gulfstream, etc, people out there today. Because you’re right, no one up higher really cares about those politics.

Admittedly I wasn't on here back then, but I thought the idea behind "don't chase upgrades" was that upgrade times are hard to predict, so if you start all over again at the bottom of another seniority list hoping for a quick upgrade, it could easily change and you won't upgrade any sooner anyway? It definitely seems to vary though. I remember in the mid 2010s people said PSA was a scab airline and you shouldn't go there even though the upgrade times were short, but there was also a thread where people berated @Screaming_Emu for not going there for a street captain slot.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Couple of things...I think you should get your CFI even if you dont plan on using it. Its the most difficult certification to get IMO and *should* be a minimum qualification for advancement for a civilian.

Please, no! Do not force people who don’t want to be CFIs and have no interest in teaching to be CFIs and teachers. I’ve been on the receiving end of that, it isn’t pretty.

2nd) I also wouldnt worry much about perceptions of taking a job that people feel isnt worthy. I can remember back in the soap opera regional airline contract days, people on here (myself included) felt that going to somewhere like goJet would be a kiss of death for future hiring. Similarly somewhere like gulfstream. The reality is, no one who is actually responsible for hiring is going to care about regional airline politics and passing up on opportunities to advance your career will only hurt you. With this job, at the very least, youll have experience of flying in real world condition, in IMC, on a schedule with a crew and I think that counts for something.

Mic drop. I bolded, italicized, and underlined it. That is the ultimate bottom line.

 

[killbilly]

I guess things have changed on here- I remember a few years ago someone bragged about working for free at an aerial survey company to build twin time, and everyone thought that was a good idea.

I have to admit I don't see this a shortcut either. It could even be good experience, like @JDean3204 said about IFR ropes. I was thinking that since so many people on here feel this is an inappropriate shortcut and that instructing is the way, the truth and the life, interviewers at future jobs potentially could. But I reckon Kingairer is right:



With how bad the pay is I suppose you could argue going to Southern puts downward pressure on pilot compensation or "brings down the profession" but from what others have said it's only a little worse than other 135 2-pilot operators, plus if people are arguing it's useless time I don't think there's a good case for that. I suppose another issue whether you'd have the time and funds to get your multi-engine rating while at Southern.



Aerial survey still seems like it could be a great option for you. I don't know if any survey companies are hiring right now, and hiring tends to be very seasonal. But with more and more regionals hiring again there's hope the survey companies might begin hiring this year as well.



Admittedly I wasn't on here back then, but I thought the idea behind "don't chase upgrades" was that upgrade times are hard to predict, so if you start all over again at the bottom of another seniority list hoping for a quick upgrade, it could easily change and you won't upgrade any sooner anyway? It definitely seems to vary though. I remember in the mid 2010s people said PSA was a scab airline and you shouldn't go there even though the upgrade times were short, but there was also a thread where people berated @Screaming_Emu for not going there for a street captain slot.

I don't think anyone said it was a shortcut, nor did anyone say instructing was the *only* way.

But there is a reason that instructing does check a lot of boxes, and he did ask for perspectives.

@Maximilian_Jenius - you gotta do what's gonna make *you* happy, man. Or, you and Jason, really. This is very much a decision you guys are going to make together. I hope you understand that sharing the ideas about instruction were meant to give you the perspective you asked for and not a browbeating. You've got some fixed obstacles that are putting some limits on your options, so it's a question of what you're willing to tolerate/afford.