Pilot Shortage!

drunkenbeagle said:
I don't know, the noncompetes that come with being a slave to the company last long after you leave. At least you have an option of paying off debt to be rid of it.
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Dunno about aviation specifically but most non-competes in any other profession are nearly unenforceable. For the rare occasion they aren’t, you probably made enough money cheating someplace out of revenue you have a phalanx of lawyers. Nobody bothers even investigating it for chump change salary stuff.

Only “big idea” stuff, and even those it’s usually easier to handle it as an Intellectual Property case since IP is completely out of control and way easier to squeeze an opponent with for an “undisclosed sum” settled out of court.

Rarely is a non-compete able to leverage that.

There’s certainly very little in the way of “big idea” stuff in air transport operations. Engineering... maybe.

Non-competes have as much teeth as my grandmother did. Fake ones that didn’t work too well. LOL.
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
You like to complain don't you? It's like someone handing you $100k and you're complaining that someone just dumped $100k into your hands. WTF? As a pilot you should be happy the government interceded. You still have a job, you can still pay your bills and feed your family. I bet that, that engineering degree probably has dust on it. Probably can't just pull that out like a fire extinguisher and "break glass in case of an emergency." Its a lot worse in other parts of the world, namely Europe where their governments didn't give bailouts to airlines. And pilots are on the breadline. Be thankful.
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Autothrust Blue said:
Airline pilots: almost all on high end UI (with the occasional obligation to work depending on how screwed they got) last 12 months

Also airline pilots: reeeeee socialism! I oppose UI top-ups! Get back to work!
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The first one/first round made sense. It was an unknown, travel virtually wiped out. After that? No. I was opposed to the Oct 1 second round and this latest third round. I’m sorry, does this hurt egos? Why are pilots any different than restaurant workers, event planners, hospitality industry, etc, who have been jobless since last March? We work in a field where we know the consequences and its cyclicalness.

1st round got us through Sept 30. After that, these grants and bailouts are nothing more than paying people free money to sit home. Sorry, but on Oct 1, a good 20-30% of the industry just wasn’t needed. They should have been furloughed in any other normal circumstance. Further putting this country into debt so ppl can stay home doing nothing, in a job field where there is no demand for their work? Nope.
 
denverpilot said:
Dunno about aviation specifically but most non-competes in any other profession are nearly unenforceable. For the rare occasion they aren’t, you probably made enough money cheating someplace out of revenue you have a phalanx of lawyers. Nobody bothers even investigating it for chump change salary stuff.

Only “big idea” stuff, and even those it’s usually easier to handle it as an Intellectual Property case since IP is completely out of control and way easier to squeeze an opponent with for an “undisclosed sum” settled out of court.

Rarely is a non-compete able to leverage that.

There’s certainly very little in the way of “big idea” stuff in air transport operations. Engineering... maybe.

Non-competes have as much teeth as my grandmother did. Fake ones that didn’t work too well. LOL.
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Herb Kelleher had made David Neeleman sign a non-compete before he got let go from SWA/Morris. David Neeleman honored it...Canada got WestJet out of the deal. I don't know much about David Neeleman's morals other than that he's Mormon, but it's proof that you can keep your deals and still prosper. Just because you don't violate the law doesn't mean it's right.
 
Flyinthrew said:
Just because you don't violate the law doesn't mean it's right.
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That's a great sentiment, but these things sometimes do violate the law. Moreover, some of them—not necessarily Mr. Neeleman & Southwest—are often manifestly unfair, especially if they come with no sort of consideration.

The reason that these things are unenforcible is because they're (in certain jurisdictions) contrary to public policy. Often expressly so, such as in the case of the State of California. They're outright prohibited for people making less than $13/hour here in IL, but are permissible for higher compensation. That said, our courts take a dim view of them, and two of the three elements of whether they may be enforced (adequate consideration, and reasonably needed to protect a legitimate business interest) pass some sort of fundamental "fairness" test to me.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Yeah CC was pretty keen to see me furloughed. Along with the majority of the senior guys at AS. I'm fairly shocked to still be employed.
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It's not that I'm keen to. Just as I'm not happy to see millions in the restaurant, event, and hospitality industry lose their jobs and livelihood/earnings. The reality is demand isn't there. Why should tax payers bail out a job for which there is no demand at the moment? I've got friends in the non-aviation world, some of whom have taken a paycut. They are pissed at the airline bailouts, and rightfully so. Why are we any special/different?

We used to talk about debt in billions, now it's trillions with a T and we talk like it's nothing. This is a 1.9 T package, apparently the next one will be 2-4 trillion. Just throwing numbers that large out there as if it has no consequences? That's wrong. Servicing this debt is going to be problematic and a huge headache. Our kids generation is being set up pretty badly.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
That's a great sentiment, but these things sometimes do violate the law. Moreover, some of them—not necessarily Mr. Neeleman & Southwest—are often manifestly unfair, especially if they come with no sort of consideration.

The reason that these things are unenforcible is because they're (in certain jurisdictions) contrary to public policy. Often expressly so, such as in the case of the State of California. They're outright prohibited for people making less than $13/hour here in IL, but are permissible for higher compensation. That said, our courts take a dim view of them, and two of the three elements of whether they may be enforced (adequate consideration, and reasonably needed to protect a legitimate business interest) pass some sort of fundamental "fairness" test to me.
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I'll buy that. Good perspective.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
It's not that I'm keen to. Just as I'm not happy to see millions in the restaurant, event, and hospitality industry lose their jobs and livelihood/earnings. The reality is demand isn't there. Why should tax payers bail out a job for which there is no demand at the moment? I've got friends in the non-aviation world, some of whom have taken a paycut. They are pissed at the airline bailouts, and rightfully so. Why are we any special/different?

We used to talk about debt in billions, now it's trillions with a T and we talk like it's nothing. This is a 1.9 T package, apparently the next one will be 2-4 trillion. Just throwing numbers that large out there as if it has no consequences? That's wrong. Servicing this debt is going to be problematic and a huge headache. Our kids generation is being set up pretty badly.
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I get your point. But airlines provide billions of dollars annually to the GDP. Where would the economy, not just individual pilots or even individual airlines be without the PSP's? For the record, I wasn't in favor of this third PSP. But was heavily in favor of the first two.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I mean they've already been set up pretty badly, but this is certainly making it worse. It's all "damned boomers!" until we're the ones sucking from the teet, then suddenly it's "national infrastructure harumph harumph". This is how you lose a Republic.
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Agreed.

We moved to this country in 1992, will be 30 years next year (can't believe how fast time has flown). I really think within the next 30 yrs, we're gonna have a day of serious financial, economic, and societal reckoning.
 
MikeD said:
Paging Shawn Raker and Vic Shefflit......

Eagle and FalconCapt for that matter too.

@Derg
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Blast from the past...

jetcareers.com

*New* Update on the Delta Connection Academy Forum

As many of you remember, last month I had the VP of Business Development for Delta Connection Academy call and threaten that I was in violation of the policy manual of my employer by hosting an online forum where people could speak freely about their experiences there and that I was at risk of...
jetcareers.com jetcareers.com
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
I get your point. But airlines provide billions of dollars annually to the GDP. Where would the economy, not just individual pilots or even individual airlines be without the PSP's? For the record, I wasn't in favor of this third PSP. But was heavily in favor of the first two.
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They'd be like the the rest of the airlines in the world. Slimmer, leaner, and will one day come back to 2019 levels. But that is not right now.
 
Flyinthrew said:
Herb Kelleher had made David Neeleman sign a non-compete before he got let go from SWA/Morris. David Neeleman honored it...Canada got WestJet out of the deal. I don't know much about David Neeleman's morals other than that he's Mormon, but it's proof that you can keep your deals and still prosper. Just because you don't violate the law doesn't mean it's right.
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Yeah. I was mostly just saying that non-compete isn’t set in stone pretty much anywhere. It’s like a lot of contract law... how much is litigating it worth to you...

In other words, it’s just the first round of money negotiations in most businesses and for us normal non-exec shrubs very few businesses see any dollar signs going after anyone making a regular salary for it. Unless their retained lawyers are particularly bored that day and need some billable hours for the bean counters.

Quite a few jurisdictions will almost immediately throw out cases involving keeping someone from working in their chosen profession too. Varies by State but it’s not a bet most lawyers will take to court.

Anyway. Goes along with one of my favorite sayings, we get as much justice as we can afford. If someone has a personal axe to grind and a fleet of retained lawyers, all bets are off. You’ll be bankrupt before they will.

I’ve crossed things off of non-competes that were poorly written to exclude hobby and community / charity work and tossed it back at numerous employers in my primary work. Gives the bored lawyers who wrote bad boilerplate garbage something to do.

“You’re not excluding my charity work to hire me, sorry. You get eight hours of my day, not 24. If you want 24 we can talk a new price for that.”

Aviation... well it’s the “shortage thread” and it might not be wise to redline even the lamest legal doc tossed at you, enforceable or not. It’s a “choose wisely” thing.

Anyway. Huge tangent. Apologies. Just fun relating the reality of them outside aviation... pretty useless. The longer the contract docs become, the more entertaining they are to read and rip to shreds... if you need to.

As a fun aside, one redline I did led me to talking to the corporate attorney to clarify a couple things and as we talked she shared that her hubs flew corporate, so we had a nice chat that day. Later he donated some older flight sim gear to me to give to a youngster interested in aviation. Just showed up at the office address months later.

Wasn’t contentious at all, it’s just the lawyer’s job... but that was a nice blast of humanity into the paper pushing process. :-)
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
It's not that I'm keen to. Just as I'm not happy to see millions in the restaurant, event, and hospitality industry lose their jobs and livelihood/earnings. The reality is demand isn't there. Why should tax payers bail out a job for which there is no demand at the moment? I've got friends in the non-aviation world, some of whom have taken a paycut. They are pissed at the airline bailouts, and rightfully so. Why are we any special/different?

We used to talk about debt in billions, now it's trillions with a T and we talk like it's nothing. This is a 1.9 T package, apparently the next one will be 2-4 trillion. Just throwing numbers that large out there as if it has no consequences? That's wrong. Servicing this debt is going to be problematic and a huge headache. Our kids generation is being set up pretty badly.
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I’ve watched various industries get bailed out my entire life. I’ve never complained about it. The cost of a burrito has increased along with our Fiat currency. My wage has never caught up to the cost of living increases. For one bright spot in my career the absolute worst thing hasn’t happened for a change. I’m just going to embrace that. The worst thing didn’t happen. Once in near 20 years. Yay.

Although an upgrade just went from 4-5 years to infinity. But at least I’m not living under a bridge with a bunch of heroin addicts. So there’s that!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Agreed.

We moved to this country in 1992, will be 30 years next year (can't believe how fast time has flown). I really think within the next 30 yrs, we're gonna have a day of serious financial, economic, and societal reckoning.
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WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN THE LAST YEAR?!

Insurrection by your political tribe, deadly protests in the street, extrajudicial executions in the street, a pandemic? Hell, we even had an asteroid zip by.
 
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