Helicopters Over DC Protesters Broke Regulations While Commander was Driving Home, DC Guard Concludes

Ian_J

Hubschrauber Flieger
Being a former Army helicopter mech crew chief turned emergency management type for the last 16 yrs after retirement

I couldn't agree more

Army leadership from AD to NGB ought to have been on the ball with this YEEEEEARS ago.

DOMOPS isn't that GD hard...but interpretation is and frankly, where's Army JAG throughout this? I suppose interpretation and party affiliation vary from State to State and that in itself, lends to "interpretation."

Thought those above me were alll high speed n stuff

Like they told me in grade school....Reading is FUNdamental....
 

Good article that really spells out why NG Aviation Leaders need to be SMEs on DOMOPS, Use of Aircraft, and really shows the importance of the briefing/approving process.
I asked @Seggy about this, if you recall, he was completely lost in the sauce on how the process works.
You should read the tweets about us during the same timeframe. They were glorious, and exactly the reason why nothing on Twitter should be taken seriously.
 
I asked @Seggy about this, if you recall, he was completely lost in the sauce on how the process works.
You should read the tweets about us during the same timeframe. They were glorious, and exactly the reason why nothing on Twitter should be taken seriously.

What are you talking about here?

Regulations were broken here that had the military use their resources against the citizens of this country. Heads need to roll.
 
What are you talking about here?

Regulations were broken here that had the military use their resources against the citizens of this country. Heads need to roll.
Ohhhhhhh Seggy, you have no idea how Guard aviation works. Not in the slightest.
The answer is in AR95-1, but I want you to tell me what regulation was/were broken.

@Seggy , if I throw a brick through a window and yell, whilst doing so, “I’M AN AMERICAN!!!”The guard has no authority to do anything?
I fly missions all the time supporting law enforcement, should I call you next time to get approval?
 
Ohhhhhhh Seggy, you have no idea how Guard aviation works. Not in the slightest.
The answer is in AR95-1, but I want you to tell me what regulation was/were broken.

@Seggy , if I throw a brick through a window and yell, whilst doing so, “I’M AN AMERICAN!!!”The guard has no authority to do anything?
I fly missions all the time supporting law enforcement, should I call you next time to get approval?

Don't forget, the military actually does report to civilian leadership. The law was broken and heads need to roll.

From the article...

“I don’t know what those conversations were, but at the end of the day Ryan was the task force commander and one of the units that he was responsible for violated nearly every FAA law to include international law by using a medevac helicopter to forcibly disperse peaceful protesters,” said one D.C. guardsmen in Washington the night of the protests. “When you look at it in totality, you’re like, ‘Holy •.’ Ryan needs to be held accountable.”

Others suspect the concern goes higher.

“They may very well be trying to protect the secretary of the Army and the chief of staff,” said Taheri, the retired National Guard Bureau two-star. “I suspect there was a lot more involvement from the highest level that they don’t want to highlight.”

Having issues with reading comprehension?
 
Last edited:
Don't forget, the military actually does report to civilian leadership. The law was broken and heads need to roll.

From the article...



Having issues with reading comprehension?
Unmmmm you didn’t answer my question. My company’s CEO is in fact my boss, but he doesn’t dispatch my flight. Very, very similar in guard flying.

Tell me which “law” was broken. Please provide me with what the Geneva accords say about Medevac aircraft, where and when those accords apply, and the process in which military pilots fly, which regulations we fall under.

Its funny the different tune you sing when we talk about Colgan 3407 and how the training department let one (maybe two) subpar people on to the line, killing 49 other people.

Yet again, you are showing your ignorance of a segment of aviation. Just because you fly a 737, that doesn’t mean you know jack squat about military aviation, especially during domestic operations.
 
AR 95-1 (Army Flight Regulations) is just the tip of spear for everything that occurred with this incident. The NG Supplement to AR 95-1, AR 40-3, NG Pam 95-5, and the FARs are all pertinent to the discussion.

While the most interesting facet if doing a post-mortem on this operation is probably the briefing and approving process and how DSCA/DOMOPs is trained, planned, and resourced, the lowest hanging fruit is the use of a medevac helicopter for the operation.

As Nark well knows, the use of medevac painted helicopters is very restrictive - generally they can only do medevac, transport patients, or conduct training. 40-3 has the full list. Any mission outside of that list has to be approved by the Deputy Chief of Staff, G–3/5/7, or Chief National Guard Bureau depending on what regulation you want to believe. The NG Supp does not give any relief to this requirement. However, 95-5 does give a possibility to use medevac helicopters in support of domestic operations but the authorized support as listed is murky at best. Of the list of authorized mission sets, the closest this mission would fall under is support for civil law enforcement, and there's a heck of an approval process required to support civil law enforcement. Now we can't really know if this mission was requested and approved by DAMO-AV/ CNGB or not, and we don't know if the DSCA approvals were received, but the timeline suggests it is probably unlikely they even tried. But of course we don't know for sure.

The second lowest hanging fruit is their altitude. The NG Supp says we'll do 91.119 except for a bunch of reasons, one of which is for "risk managed" and "approved" DOMOPS missions. Doing some "regulation gymnastics" can kind of circle around to their altitude being okay - if they were indeed on an approved DOMOPS mission, were responding in support of disaster relief, or were an "immediate" need for civil authorities. All of that stuff is in 95-5 (also known as the SAAO bible) and if you haven't read it, it's a dense, complicated read. Regardless, the NG Supp and 91.119 would be controlling in this case if it is indeed true per the article that they were never granted permission to fly below those altitudes.

Now I don't know if any "laws" were broken here - but at least one military regulation probably was broken. What I know for sure as a guy involved with these processes in a seat a little different from a stick wiggler's is if I got a call to send some of my folks out on a mission like this, an APU wouldn't start until NGB gave me something in writing saying it was okay and the JAG said it was right. I also know the briefing and approving process here, while it might have been technically by the book in sort of a rote step 1, step 2 way, was weak at best. You just don't shoot from the hip with DOMOPS/DSCA missions, especially non-standard, untrained-for missions.
 
Unmmmm you didn’t answer my question. My company’s CEO is in fact my boss, but he doesn’t dispatch my flight. Very, very similar in guard flying.

Tell me which “law” was broken. Please provide me with what the Geneva accords say about Medevac aircraft, where and when those accords apply, and the process in which military pilots fly, which regulations we fall under.

Its funny the different tune you sing when we talk about Colgan 3407 and how the training department let one (maybe two) subpar people on to the line, killing 49 other people.

Yet again, you are showing your ignorance of a segment of aviation. Just because you fly a 737, that doesn’t mean you know jack squat about military aviation, especially during domestic operations.

It wasn't hard to find a plethora of folks with experience in military aviation who were saying "oh this is not good, probably not legal, regs were broken" when this incident happened.




Why do you keep defending it?
 
AR 95-1 (Army Flight Regulations) is just the tip of spear for everything that occurred with this incident. The NG Supplement to AR 95-1, AR 40-3, NG Pam 95-5, and the FARs are all pertinent to the discussion.

While the most interesting facet if doing a post-mortem on this operation is probably the briefing and approving process and how DSCA/DOMOPs is trained, planned, and resourced, the lowest hanging fruit is the use of a medevac helicopter for the operation.

As Nark well knows, the use of medevac painted helicopters is very restrictive - generally they can only do medevac, transport patients, or conduct training. 40-3 has the full list. Any mission outside of that list has to be approved by the Deputy Chief of Staff, G–3/5/7, or Chief National Guard Bureau depending on what regulation you want to believe. The NG Supp does not give any relief to this requirement. However, 95-5 does give a possibility to use medevac helicopters in support of domestic operations but the authorized support as listed is murky at best. Of the list of authorized mission sets, the closest this mission would fall under is support for civil law enforcement, and there's a heck of an approval process required to support civil law enforcement. Now we can't really know if this mission was requested and approved by DAMO-AV/ CNGB or not, and we don't know if the DSCA approvals were received, but the timeline suggests it is probably unlikely they even tried. But of course we don't know for sure.

The second lowest hanging fruit is their altitude. The NG Supp says we'll do 91.119 except for a bunch of reasons, one of which is for "risk managed" and "approved" DOMOPS missions. Doing some "regulation gymnastics" can kind of circle around to their altitude being okay - if they were indeed on an approved DOMOPS mission, were responding in support of disaster relief, or were an "immediate" need for civil authorities. All of that stuff is in 95-5 (also known as the SAAO bible) and if you haven't read it, it's a dense, complicated read. Regardless, the NG Supp and 91.119 would be controlling in this case if it is indeed true per the article that they were never granted permission to fly below those altitudes.

Now I don't know if any "laws" were broken here - but at least one military regulation probably was broken. What I know for sure as a guy involved with these processes in a seat a little different from a stick wiggler's is if I got a call to send some of my folks out on a mission like this, an APU wouldn't start until NGB gave me something in writing saying it was okay and the JAG said it was right. I also know the briefing and approving process here, while it might have been technically by the book in sort of a rote step 1, step 2 way, was weak at best. You just don't shoot from the hip with DOMOPS/DSCA missions, especially non-standard, untrained-for missions.


Thank you very much for this.
 
Thank you very much for this.

My pleasure. It’s certainly an interesting case that definitely made Guard Aviation HQs across the country take a look at their own procedures for requests like this.

One of the things Nark mentioned above correlating airline dispatch with how military flights happen make me think he’s speaking through the lens of a line pilot. If that’s the case, I think it’s a fair assumption that the aircrew themselves most likely believed they were on an appropriately approved mission. There’s really no way for a regular crew to know if the approvals were legit or not. Just a guess, but I’d wager the crew was led astray by overenthusiastic leadership.
 
My pleasure. It’s certainly an interesting case that definitely made Guard Aviation HQs across the country take a look at their own procedures for requests like this.

One of the things Nark mentioned above correlating airline dispatch with how military flights happen make me think he’s speaking through the lens of a line pilot. If that’s the case, I think it’s a fair assumption that the aircrew themselves most likely believed they were on an appropriately approved mission. There’s really no way for a regular crew to know if the approvals were legit or not. Just a guess, but I’d wager the crew was led astray by overenthusiastic leadership.

This reminds me of the cluster right after 9/11. Sure we could put troops in airports, but unless they were MPs, those other MOSs had little/no experience in that arena. It’s when the “do it right now” tasks diverge from established training and procedures that problems arise. Too much “shooting from the hip” can lead to “shooting in the foot.”
 
This reminds me of the cluster right after 9/11. Sure we could put troops in airports, but unless they were MPs, those other MOSs had little/no experience in that arena. It’s when the “do it right now” tasks diverge from established training and procedures that problems arise. Too much “shooting from the hip” can lead to “shooting in the foot.”

The MN Governor tried to make this case when he activated the ENTIRE MNARNG during the George Floyd riots and got roasted by right wing types. The general public think we are all Rambo, but reality is dramatically different...
 
The MN Governor tried to make this case when he activated the ENTIRE MNARNG during the George Floyd riots and got roasted by right wing types. The general public think we are all Rambo, but reality is dramatically different...

Umm...the ARNG was in Rambo, and not in a good way. Very 1980s. So either way, likening today’s Guard to Rambo himself or the unit in the movie, it’s no good.
 
One of the things Nark mentioned above correlating airline dispatch with how military flights happen make me think he’s speaking through the lens of a line pilot. If that’s the case, I think it’s a fair assumption that the aircrew themselves most likely believed they were on an appropriately approved mission. There’s really no way for a regular crew to know if the approvals were legit or not.

I have issue with that. As a line pilot you shouldn't blindly follow what dispatch tells you to do. For a crew to do a crowd dispersal maneuver, at night, in a medevac helicopter, alarm bells should have been going off in their heads from a safety stand point, at a minimum. The fact that a military asset was being turned against peaceful civilians is horrific and the crew should have sensed something was up and not do what they did.


Just a guess, but I’d wager the crew was led astray by overenthusiastic leadership.

That could very well be the case, but the crew should know better. 'I was just following orders' isn't a valid excuse and as stated alarm bells should have been going off in their heads.

With the leadership piece, I am sure that played a very large part in all of this and don't disagree with you there.
 
I have issue with that. As a line pilot you shouldn't blindly follow what dispatch tells you to do. For a crew to do a crowd dispersal maneuver, at night, in a medevac helicopter, alarm bells should have been going off in their heads from a safety stand point, at a minimum. The fact that a military asset was being turned against peaceful civilians is horrific and the crew should have sensed something was up and not do what they did.




That could very well be the case, but the crew should know better. 'I was just following orders' isn't a valid excuse and as stated alarm bells should have been going off in their heads.

With the leadership piece, I am sure that played a very large part in all of this and don't disagree with you there.

I’ve thought about that a lot and I just can’t come up with that conclusion.

From the safety side, who knows what discussions happened and what mitigation procedures were in place. I can’t comment on it because I wasn’t there and I don’t do or supervise this particular mission set.

From the crew go/no-go decision, I just don’t think the aircrew had a leg to stand on morally or ethically to refuse those orders. If the leader who is the person who by doctrine gets those types of approvals, and if that person told the crew they had those approvals, there’s no reason to doubt the orders. They have no way of knowing if the leader lied or is incompetent. An Army Guard crew would never expect to visually see orders authorizing Medevac to o something special or to see orders authorizing a DOMOP. The person who gets those orders is (supposed to be) THE subject matter expert in these things and is the one who receives the approvals. There’s a level of trust that the leaders are doing the right thing. Sometimes they aren’t, but the alternative would be unusual. It takes a special authorization to do things like paradrops or funeral flyovers... if I got those approvals and ordered a crew to go I’d be pretty shocked if they wanted to see the email string that authorized it.

And I can certainly see a lot of areas where you could shoot some holes in all that from an ideal, what “should” happen scenario, but I can tell you generally, the system works well and it probably prevents A LOT of dumb stuff from happening that some geniuses think up.

Overall, no, I really don’t think the crew should know better unless they somehow knew the proper approvals weren’t received.
 
Back
Top