Logbook Entry Questions

[Porl]

- I went up as a passenger in a glider. Can I enter that in my logbook, and if so, how?

- If I leave an airport, fly to another airport, shutdown, do a few circuits at that airport, shut down, then fly back to my original airport, does the whole time count as cross-country hours? Or would the time that I did circuits not count as cross-country because I just stayed at one airport, shutting down before and after?

- Does sim air time (Cessna 172 sim) count as single-engine hours?

Thanks.

 

[adk]

I'm going to preface this by asking whether you're based in the US. The fact that you used the term "circuits" instead of "traffic patterns" suggests that you may be based in another country. These answers are under the assumption that you are operating under FAA rules.

- I went up as a passenger in a glider. Can I enter that in my logbook, and if so, how?

Probably not. You are not rated to fly a glider, so you cannot log it as PIC (pilot in command) time. You may be able to log it as Dual Received (instruction) if the glider pilot is rated as a Glider CFI and is willing to sign your logbook.

- If I leave an airport, fly to another airport, shutdown, do a few circuits at that airport, shut down, then fly back to my original airport, does the whole time count as cross-country hours? Or would the time that I did circuits not count as cross-country because I just stayed at one airport, shutting down before and after?

Time practicing landings on a cross-country flight is generally included in the cross-country time, as is taxi time. Realize that various certificates have different definitions of what constitutes a cross-country flight.

- Does sim air time (Cessna 172 sim) count as single-engine hours?

No.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Probably not. You are not rated to fly a glider, so you cannot log it as PIC (pilot in command) time. You may be able to log it as Dual Received (instruction) if the glider pilot is rated as a Glider CFI and is willing to sign your logbook.

Not to mention that he didn't say he did anything except just sit there. It would be like logging 737 time in seat 15B

 

[hammerhat]

You are not rated to fly a glider, so you cannot log it as PIC (pilot in command) time

Even if you are rated still can't log as PIC if you are a passenger. You need to be manipulating controls or giving flight instruction to actually log PIC.

You can log PIC even if you are not rated to fly a glider but not in the passenger case.

You may be able to log it as Dual Received (instruction) if the glider pilot is rated as a Glider CFI and is willing to sign your logbook.

This is true but willingness to sign logbook alone is not a sufficient condition to log this as dual received. The only time you can log dual received is when it's a bona fide instructional flight where the CFI is appropriately rated and is providing actual flight instruction. You can't log dual just because a CFI is present in the cockpit.

Time practicing landings on a cross-country flight is generally included in the cross-country time

Pretty sure I've seen a LOI saying the opposite. Taxi time, go around time if one was needed etc is a XC time. Bouncing in the pattern for the purpose of practicing landings is not a XC time even when performed away from your base.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Pretty sure I've seen a LOI saying the opposite. Taxi time, go around time if one was needed etc is a XC time. Bouncing in the pattern for the purpose of practicing landings is not a XC time even when performed away from your base.

I've seen this question discussed for at least 25 years and never heard of one even addressing the question. If you find it I would definitely like to see it.

Personally, I have always felt there was a reasonableness factor. Especially early on, being in a different airport environment where you don't turn base over the Walmart can be disconcerting so a few laps around the strange pattern can be an appropriate part of a student solo cross country flight. OTOH, a DPE looking at a solo cross country barely 51 nm with 30 landings would be well within his rights smelling a rat.

 

[adk]

Even if you are rated still can't log as PIC if you are a passenger. You need to be manipulating controls or giving flight instruction to actually log PIC.

Not quite true ... § 91.109(c) ... would be an interesting application in a glider

You can log PIC even if you are not rated to fly a glider but not in the passenger case.

Not quite true .... § 61.51(e) .... the one exception would be a pilot who is not not glider rated but has a solo endorsement and is soloing.

This is true but willingness to sign logbook alone is not a sufficient condition to log this as dual received. The only time you can log dual received is when it's a bona fide instructional flight where the CFI is appropriately rated and is providing actual flight instruction. You can't log dual just because a CFI is present in the cockpit.

Sort of .... § 61.51(h) ... while it would be arguably unethical to log a glider ride as dual received, a glider CFI could probably argue that he did some teaching on the flight (I don't know why he would).

Pretty sure I've seen a LOI saying the opposite. Taxi time, go around time if one was needed etc is a XC time. Bouncing in the pattern for the purpose of practicing landings is not a XC time even when performed away from your base.

As @MidlifeFlyer said, source please

 

[MikeD]

- If I leave an airport, fly to another airport, shutdown, do a few circuits at that airport, shut down, then fly back to my original airport, does the whole time count as cross-country hours? Or would the time that I did circuits not count as cross-country because I just stayed at one airport, shutting down before and after?

Thanks.

The pattern time wouldn’t count as XC because in the specific case you cite, you are doing separate flights. Because you shut down, you essentially did three separate flights: an XC from A to B. Shut down. Then did a local pattern flight at B. Shut down. Then did an XC flight from B to A.
.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The pattern time wouldn’t count as XC because in the specific case you cite, you are doing separate flights. Because you shut down, you essentially did three separate flights: an XC from A to B. Shut down. Then did a local pattern flight at B. Shut down. Then did an XC flight from B to A.
.

The FAA has been very clear that a shutdown does not automatically terminate a cross country.

The old, orphaned, disowned Part 61 FAQ (used to explain the extensive Part 61 revision in 1997) answered this type of question with "The 'original point of departure' for the purpose of a cross country does not change with a new day or delay."

More recently, in 2009, in answering a number of question about cross country logging (mostly regarding safety pilot scenarios), the FAA Chief Counsel made the following observation in response to a question about repositioning fights:

“There is nothing in § 61.1(b)(3)(ii) or previous FAA interpretations dictating how separate flights must be logged. Accordingly, the pilot may choose what is considered a discreet flight and what is merely a segment of a flight, and then log that time appropriately when the flight is conducted. Section 61.1(b)(3)(ii) requires that the flight include a landing at a point other than the point of departure.”
[2009 Glenn Interpretation](https://is.gd/pHRXUh)

FWIW, my commercial solo cross country was a multi day trip.

 

[BigZ]

The FAA has been very clear that a shutdown does not automatically terminate a cross country.

The old, orphaned, disowned Part 61 FAQ (used to explain the extensive Part 61 revision in 1997) answered this type of question with "The 'original point of departure' for the purpose of a cross country does not change with a new day or delay."

More recently, in 2009, in answering a number of question about cross country logging (mostly regarding safety pilot scenarios), the FAA Chief Counsel made the following observation in response to a question about repositioning fights:

“There is nothing in § 61.1(b)(3)(ii) or previous FAA interpretations dictating how separate flights must be logged. Accordingly, the pilot may choose what is considered a discreet flight and what is merely a segment of a flight, and then log that time appropriately when the flight is conducted. Section 61.1(b)(3)(ii) requires that the flight include a landing at a point other than the point of departure.”
[2009 Glenn Interpretation](https://is.gd/pHRXUh)

FWIW, my commercial solo cross country was a multi day trip.

Agree with all of the above, but I believe the intent of the question was to determine whether the xcountry time padding with pattern work was allowed.
I know of at least one DPE that would see a padded flight like that and would get a pen out to subtract 0.2 for each extra landing.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Agree with all of the above, but I believe the intent of the question was to determine whether the xcountry time padding with pattern work was allowed.
I know of at least one DPE that would see a padded flight like that and would get a pen out to subtract 0.2 for each extra landing.

That's the problem with having no clear, uniform answer. Whenever that happens, DPEs and FSDOs make up their own rules. Sometime those personal rules are wrong.

 

[hammerhat]

Not quite true .... § 61.51(e) .... the one exception would be a pilot who is not not glider rated but has a solo endorsement and is soloing.

Not quite true what? You're saying "not quite true" and then confirming what I said above. I don't understand.

Sort of .... § 61.51(h) ... while it would be arguably unethical to log a glider ride as dual received, a glider CFI could probably argue that he did some teaching on the flight (I don't know why he would).

Not "sort of" and not "arguable" but absolutely clear cut. Thinking it's just "unethical" but otherwise legal is absurd.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Not quite true what? You're saying "not quite true" and then confirming what I said above. I don't understand.

just a guess..

You can log PIC even if you are not rated to fly a glider but not in the passenger case

sounds like you were treating gliders as a special case. That one could log PIC time in a glider without being rated or solo even though one couldn't in a different type of aircraft. It made me pause and wonder for a moment too.

 

[adk]

Not quite true what? You're saying "not quite true" and then confirming what I said above. I don't understand.

@MidlifeFlyer nailed it ... you cannot log Glider PIC unless you are rated to fly a glider or you are endorsed to solo a glider.

Not "sort of" and not "arguable" but absolutely clear cut. Thinking it's just "unethical" but otherwise legal is absurd.

If you can show me any sort of reference that defines the minimum amount of instruction necessary to log "training time" on a flight I'm all ears. If an instructor takes a passenger up on a sightseeing flight and says "this is the stick, it pitches and banks the airplane" he has given instruction. I don't know why he would log the flight as dual given, and I don't think doing so would be in the spirit of the FARs, but I don't know of any prohibition on doing so.

I mean, if we want to say "you can only log dual given while doing this" I need to go into my logbook and subtract about .3 of dual given from every cross-country I instructed because we were talking about sports in cruise and I wasn't constantly and continuously bestowing aviation knowledge on my eager students!

 

[Porl]

Thank you everyone for your answers.

I did my flight training in Canada, and we used the word "circuit" for "pattern" most of the time.

It seems like there is no clear answer one way or the other regarding the time in the middle of the cross-country flight practicing the pattern at an unfamiliar airport.

 

[fholbert]

I was mowing the lawn. The lawn mower blade creates a high and low pressure area much like a propeller.

Can I log that time as pilot in command single engine?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I was mowing the lawn. The lawn mower blade creates a high and low pressure area much like a propeller.

Can I log that time as pilot in command single engine?

Only if you take off and land.