Frontier

NickH said:
I saw your point, I just disagree with it. This isn't "That Other Site", so disagreements don't mean you have to launch in to personal attacks. That's really not appropriate.

I wasn't the only one disappointed to see Spirit pilots agreeing to such a poor contract. The NMB is irrelevant, at this point.
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It's cute that you think the Spirit contract is "poor". Ha...ha...ha. It's also cute you deem the NMB irrelevant. That statement alone proves you have little to no clue what you're talking about. The Spirit is quite a bit better than what was in place prior to contract 2018. Our sincere apologies for significantly raising the bar so Frontier had a legitimate target to raise their own contract. Yes it's true, our contract didn't go from near the bottom of the industry pay rates to the top...so sorry to disappoint. However it made huge gains in many areas. Those that thought the Spirit CBA would exceed a 30+ year old Legacy contract in every aspect in a single cycle were living in a dream world...it simply doesn't work that way (despite what internet heroes believe to be possible).

So please enlighten us...where is it that you're currently employed so we know what type of contract you're currently working under to have such sage advice on what Spirit and/ or Frontier should do.
 
roundout said:
That's the bottom line. For 2.5 years we weren't going to accept a discount contract, yet here we are about to vote on a discount contract. It would be interesting to know what kind of knowledge or information was discovered that convinced the NC to alter our position.
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I believe it's a Time Value Money equation. Could you get more after another year or two of negotiating? Maybe, maybe not. Will that "extra" you "might" be able to get in that time overcome the deficit you created by turning down the significant gains now. Maybe...but most likely no.

And yes, the NMB's opinion in this matters significantly. Significantly!
 
Cruise said:
It's cute that you think the Spirit contract is "poor". Ha...ha...ha. It's also cute you deem the NMB irrelevant. That statement alone proves you have little to no clue what you're talking about. The Spirit is quite a bit better than what was in place prior to contract 2018. Our sincere apologies for significantly raising the bar so Frontier had a legitimate target to raise their own contract. Yes it's true, our contract didn't go from near the bottom of the industry pay rates to the top...so sorry to disappoint. However it made huge gains in many areas. Those that thought the Spirit CBA would exceed a 30+ year old Legacy contract in every aspect in a single cycle were living in a dream world...it simply doesn't work that way (despite what internet heroes believe to be possible).
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One of your own pilots has pointed out the reduction in his QoL. Your contract went from near bottom of the industry to near bottom of the industry. If not for Frontier, you'll stay at the bottom for the next five years, falling further and further behind. Pilots haven't had so much leverage in decades.
 
NickH said:
One of your own pilots has pointed out the reduction in his QoL. Your contract went from near bottom of the industry to near bottom of the industry. If not for Frontier, you'll stay at the bottom for the next five years, falling further and further behind. Pilots haven't had so much leverage in decades.
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One pilot's experience doesn't make or break a contract for an entire pilot group. So I'll ask the question again, where is it that you work so we can all know what wonderful contract you work under? Also, what experience do you have in dealing with the NMB?

Or is it you're just blathering on about stuff you have zero direct experience with?
 
Cruise said:
Or is it you're just blathering on about stuff you have zero direct experience with?
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One pilot who would dare to position in opposition to the pro-company loudmouths is enough to indicate that all isn't roses.

I'll freely admit no direct experience, simply the ability to read, and blathering on is what the internet is for. Apart from cat videos. I'm starting my informed opinion. I'm sorry my opinion makes you feel bad.

There is a simple fact that Spirit, despite having one of the newest contracts, is one of the lowest paid pilot groups for the airplane type. I think you deserve more, and the loudmouths won't change that opinion no matter how hard they try.
 
NickH said:
One pilot who would dare to position in opposition to the pro-company loudmouths is enough to indicate that all isn't roses.

I'll freely admit no direct experience, simply the ability to read, and blathering on is what the internet is for. Apart from cat videos. I'm starting my informed opinion. I'm sorry my opinion makes you feel bad.

There is a simple fact that Spirit, despite having one of the newest contracts, is one of the lowest paid pilot groups for the airplane type. I think you deserve more, and the loudmouths won't change that opinion no matter how hard they try.
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Your opinion doesn't make me feel bad in the least. I'm quite happy right where I'm at, thank you very much.
So you're saying anyone who doesn't think the Spirit CBA is a turd is a loudmouth? Got it.
Funny how you're avoiding the question on where you work to have gathered such an "informed" opinion on all things contract. Very telling.
 
Cruise said:
Your opinion doesn't make me feel bad in the least. I'm quite happy right where I'm at, thank you very much.
So you're saying anyone who doesn't think the Spirit CBA is a turd is a loudmouth? Got it.
Funny how you're avoiding the question on where you work to have gathered such an "informed" opinion on all things contract. Very telling.
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No, the people who criticize other people, rather than challenging their opinions are loudmouths. Want to disagree with my opinion, that Spirit could do better? Great! Saying I'm not qualified to have an opinion? That's just trying to suppress a differing viewpoint, rather than trying to change it.
 
@NickH if you surf over to the spirit TA thread, pilots within the group opined that they couldn’t do better. Reasons for those opinions were well stated. All of which were drawn from personal reasons.
Much of that has to do with how the NMB is set up. A point you made earlier in this thread.

While I have never been part of a negotiation team, I have spent many hours on conference calls (in places I can only tell over beers) I feel my understanding of the processs is much deeper than yours.

I haven’t met a pilot that thinks Spirit is overpaid as a group, nor one who wishes to concede what was negotiated.

@Cruise correct me if I'm wrong: Spirit pilots were presented a chart with Delta pay rates. Those rates caused the company to operate in the red for years. As pilots we have to manage expectations. This TA is part of that.
 
NickH said:
One of your own pilots has pointed out the reduction in his QoL. Your contract went from near bottom of the industry to near bottom of the industry. If not for Frontier, you'll stay at the bottom for the next five years, falling further and further behind. Pilots haven't had so much leverage in decades.
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I agree absolutely with this and I work at Spirit. My QOL has tanked so much so that I live in base and now I am starting to commute to try and get a better schedule.....I can't wait until PBS when my schedule will tank more.
 
Nark said:
@NickH if you surf over to the spirit TA thread, pilots within the group opined that they couldn’t do better. Reasons for those opinions were well stated. All of which were drawn from personal reasons.
Much of that has to do with how the NMB is set up. A point you made earlier in this thread.

While I have never been part of a negotiation team, I have spent many hours on conference calls (in places I can only tell over beers) I feel my understanding of the processs is much deeper than yours.

I haven’t met a pilot that thinks Spirit is overpaid as a group, nor one who wishes to concede what was negotiated.

@Cruise correct me if I'm wrong: Spirit pilots were presented a chart with Delta pay rates. Those rates caused the company to operate in the red for years. As pilots we have to manage expectations. This TA is part of that.
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The leverage the pilot group has relates to staffing rather than striking. Right now Frontier cannot hire enough pilots to staff their airline. The company needs a new contract to continue operating. That's a very different scenario from what is considered normal. The company no longer benefits from dragging out the process as long as possible.

This is a great point relating to keeping an airline profitable, and managing that expectation. But Spirit isn't close to operating in the red. They weren't before the contract, and they are more profitable this year with the contract they have. I know I'm not the only member here who made some money trading their stock in the last year! Hindsight may be 20/20, but the company could be paying Delta rates and still seen growth in profitability. The biggest threat to their future is still staffing. The exact same difficulty in hiring will be back in a couple of years. Hopefully Spirit and Frontier pilots can both use that to their advantage next time.
 
Eagle421flyer said:
I agree absolutely with this and I work at Spirit. My QOL has tanked so much so that I live in base and now I am starting to commute to try and get a better schedule.....I can't wait until PBS when my schedule will tank more.
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Are you a line holder? I get reserve being worse but I personally have had zero QOL impact after the contract. I'm interested to know how yours has been seemingly destroyed. Did you previously checkerboard your reserve?
 
Nark said:
@NickH if you surf over to the spirit TA thread, pilots within the group opined that they couldn’t do better. Reasons for those opinions were well stated. All of which were drawn from personal reasons.
Much of that has to do with how the NMB is set up. A point you made earlier in this thread.

While I have never been part of a negotiation team, I have spent many hours on conference calls (in places I can only tell over beers) I feel my understanding of the processs is much deeper than yours.

I haven’t met a pilot that thinks Spirit is overpaid as a group, nor one who wishes to concede what was negotiated.

@Cruise correct me if I'm wrong: Spirit pilots were presented a chart with Delta pay rates. Those rates caused the company to operate in the red for years. As pilots we have to manage expectations. This TA is part of that.
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You're spot on, @Nark. Of course there are areas in this CBA that can be improved in the next round of negotiations. However, we made massive gains in many, many areas. It's unfortunate that a few areas went slightly backwards (basically reserve rules and some schedule integrity stuff) to move forward as a whole. However, when you look at CBA'18 with a wholistic approach, it's undeniably a massive improvement from CBA'10 (reminder: one which was signed following a strike). It's called negotiations for a reason; not demands and receive. For us to make the gains we did in a single contract cycle were quite impressive. The NMB, yes their opinion matters significantly, said this is it, take it or leave it but they were done as far as we were concerned. So sorry we couldn't impress everyone, but then some simply refuse to see the larger picture (this isn't a shot @Eagle421flyer, the reserve guys definitely saw a reduction in QOL).
 
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