Frontier

NickH said:
Significant improvement for sure. It's not fair, or even close, based on pay alone and it's bad for the industry as a whole.
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I disagree. A 50%+ pay rate increase is a fair improvement. I know it sucks that we started so far below other carriers, but due to many circumstances, that is the reality of the situation.
 
turbojet28 said:
I disagree. A 50%+ pay rate increase is a fair improvement. I know it sucks that we started so far below other carriers, but due to many circumstances, that is the reality of the situation.
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Your starting point has no bearing on the fairness of your future pay. Fair involves every operator of that airplane type being paid the same. An argument could be made, that as each carrier gets a new contract, they should leapfrog each other, progressively bringing up the entire industry. Some may say it's fair for Low Cost Carriers to cheap out and buy cheap pilots, although I and SWA pilots would disagree. But I can't see an argument that getting a new contract and still being the lowest paid is fair. Huge improvement it may be, but it's not fair. Unless you deserve to be paid less?
 
NickH said:
Your starting point has no bearing on the fairness of your future pay. Fair involves every operator of that airplane type being paid the same. An argument could be made, that as each carrier gets a new contract, they should leapfrog each other, progressively bringing up the entire industry. Some may say it's fair for Low Cost Carriers to cheap out and buy cheap pilots, although I and SWA pilots would disagree. But I can't see an argument that getting a new contract and still being the lowest paid is fair. Huge improvement it may be, but it's not fair. Unless you deserve to be paid less?
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The National Mediation Board doesn’t agree with your assessment, and has stated that a 42% raise is significant, and when offered, was deemed bargaining in good faith.

How do you eat an elephant?
 
NickH said:
My guess is, sadly, yes. Probably with about 70%. People see the increase in pay, and don't plan to be there for more than a few more years. They're thinking short term rather than career. Just like Spirit, a lacklustre contract now means more money in their pockets before they move on.
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A fair amount of people are staying.
 
NickH said:
You make sure everyone gets enough meat to live on. Giving some three bites instead of one is a huge increase, but they'll still starve before the end of the month.
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You missed my intent entirely.
The NMB won’t eat the entire elephant in one bite, nor will the company.
Prior to Spirit, Hawaiian had the largest pay bump in history. Both have lackluster contracts as compared to the big 3 in terms of rates, because they didn’t start at the same “starting point.”

For the F9 dudes: do what you have to do, for you and your family, not what some random dingleberry wants you to do.
 
Nark said:
You missed my intent entirely.
The NMB won’t eat the entire elephant in one bite, nor will the company.
Prior to Spirit, Hawaiian had the largest pay bump in history. Both have lackluster contracts as compared to the big 3 in terms of rates, because they didn’t start at the same “starting point.”

For the F9 dudes: do what you have to do, for you and your family, not what some random dingleberry wants you to do.
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I saw your point, I just disagree with it. This isn't "That Other Site", so disagreements don't mean you have to launch in to personal attacks. That's really not appropriate.

I wasn't the only one disappointed to see Spirit pilots agreeing to such a poor contract. The NMB is irrelevant, at this point.
 
I think you failed to realize, that "dingleberry" isn't inclusive, but a broad brush.
The NMB is quite relevant. Should F9 or NK pilots vote(d) down the TA, who do you think looks at that for any future agreements?

I'm not a Frontier pilot, and as far as I know, neither are you. I have donated my 2 cents to the discussion, and have nothing more to add. Good luck to the F9 folks, and perspective pilots. Make an informed choice. Again, don't let some dingleberry make the choice for you.
 
NickH said:
I saw your point, I just disagree with it. This isn't "That Other Site", so disagreements don't mean you have to launch in to personal attacks. That's really not appropriate.

I wasn't the only one disappointed to see Spirit pilots agreeing to such a poor contract. The NMB is irrelevant, at this point.
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The Spirit contract is far better than what is on the table for F9 in my opinion. Pay rates are almost identical but many sections of thier proposal fall behind. Reschedule pay, LTD, PBS control (or lack there of), Red/green, reserve and other work rules just don’t line up.

I was disappointed with not getting legacy rates in the NK contract, but to be honest, after working under this contract for the last 6 months I don’t feel like much of anything has been given up on the work rule front and it should only get better when PBS comes around. With that being said, my life pre-contract did not revolve around trans conflicts and I don’t bid reserve.

Point being- I would not consider the NK contract a “poor contract”.
 
RA390 said:
The Spirit contract is far better than what is on the table for F9 in my opinion. Pay rates are almost identical but many sections of thier proposal fall behind. Reschedule pay, LTD, PBS control (or lack there of), Red/green, reserve and other work rules just don’t line up.

I was disappointed with not getting legacy rates in the NK contract, but to be honest, after working under this contract for the last 6 months I don’t feel like much of anything has been given up on the work rule front and it should only get better when PBS comes around. With that being said, my life pre-contract did not revolve around trans conflicts and I don’t bid reserve.
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I was disappointed in our contract. I’m glad that you haven’t noticed a difference in your qol in the last 6 months maybe you would like to switch me? I can’t get off reserve and now I can’t accommodate my schedule as much (or hardly at all) to work around my wife’s. It’s not great for us that are stuck on reserve and it’s about to get a lot worse once pbs kicks in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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jtrain609 said:
Even then.

Giving up being 50% on a seniority list, where you're a topped out captain making $260 an hour and basically furlough proof? Anyone that left for Delta, United or American with that kind of seniority and pay needs to have their head examined.
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NickH said:
APC says current rates for a 12 year Captain are 162. That's a 4 year United 737 FO. Sure, there's always more to it than that, but if you have a decade or more left in your career, that's a no-brainer.
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And by year 4 at DL/AA/UA youd likely have the opportunity to flying 777/330 and bring in pay rates around 200/hr as an FO. Not saying I would leave, but if you're in your 30's, commuting out of a big 3 hub to somewhere you dont want to...maybe.
 
Kingairer said:
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And by year 4 at DL/AA/UA youd likely have the opportunity to flying 777/330 and bring in pay rates around 200/hr as an FO. Not saying I would leave, but if you're in your 30's, commuting out of a big 3 hub to somewhere you dont want to...maybe.
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Not positive anyone hired today is going to make it to year four anytime soon, but I think the next recession is right around the corner the same way some cats think robots are going to take our jobs and steal our women.
 
amichael said:
I had higher expectations.
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That's the bottom line. For 2.5 years we weren't going to accept a discount contract, yet here we are about to vote on a discount contract. It would be interesting to know what kind of knowledge or information was discovered that convinced the NC to alter our position.
 
turbojet28 said:
I agree that this deal is fair. Some of the things you read on “That Other Site” and on the company FB page are just ridiculous. Is this deal perfect? Of course not. Is it an overall significant improvement, yes. I just don’t understand what some others either expected or thought would happen.

Especially about new reassignment rules. I mean, how can you not expect some tightening of rules in this area after the last couple years? I’m just being honest, how is an airline supposed to operate if it literally can’t contact crew members? Guess what, when you work for an airline, sometimes crap happens, and it requires a reassignment. Try making it impossible for your company to get ahold of you in any other job on earth and let me know how that goes for you.
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The phone contact thing is actually a huge sticking point for me. I understand in our current contract it was bad language, that for once worked in our favor, which probably needs to be fixed. I bet it is tremendously important for management to fix it, so I’m curious what did they fix for us that was of equal value...? Vacations not being able to be cancelled would have been nice, but they’ll still use that against us the next time around if not sooner.

Also, do other companies have the same language that you have to call back within 15 minutes of finishing a flight? This seems extreme to me, but honestly I don’t know. I understand if you get extended you’ll get some premium pay but it looks like no more than would be applied to the premium folder. So why would the company even bother putting it into the premium folder and hope someone takes it when to them it’s the same price to call someone who is required to take it.
 
jtrain609 said:
Pretty sure there's a Futurama episode about that.
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FIFY.
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