Turbulence Avoidance

Interesting how the article talks about their OCC (although they call it their "Operational Customer Center") along with apps pilots use and their in-house meteorology unit, but doesn't mention dispatchers once.
 
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manniax said:
Interesting how the article talks about their OCC (although they call it their "Operational Customer Center") along with apps pilots use and their in-house meteorology unit, but doesn't mention dispatchers once.
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That's a good point. The author missed that boat.
 
manniax said:
Interesting how the article talks about their OCC (although they call it their "Operational Customer Center") along with apps pilots use and their in-house meteorology unit, but doesn't mention dispatchers once.
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I think they swapped out "Control" for "Customer" a couple years ago. XJT followed suit in the rush to curry favor with the all powerful DL overlords. Went over like a lead balloon in Dispatch.
 
manniax said:
Interesting how the article talks about their OCC (although they call it their "Operational Customer Center") along with apps pilots use and their in-house meteorology unit, but doesn't mention dispatchers once.
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Because it’s a story about the app, which is used real time in the air. Dispatchers are not part of the OODA loop for managing short term deviations around weather, either laterally or vertically. The data is derived from automated sensors aboard airborne aircraft and massaged by the meteorologists and then pushed out to the pilots, independent of the dispatcher’s desk.

Yes, dispatchers plan the initial route based on the weather products at hand, but that could be hours prior to flight. This was about handling the dynamic weather changes minutes ahead. I can “ping” the company flight a few minutes ahead and see what his ride is like now, and not have to wait for an ACARS conversation with the dispatcher.
 
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Cptnchia said:
Because it’s a story about the app, which is used real time in the air. Dispatchers are not part of the OODA loop for managing short term deviations around weather, either laterally or vertically. The data is derived from automated sensors aboard airborne aircraft and massaged by the meteorologists and then pushed out to the pilots, independent of the dispatcher’s desk.

Yes, dispatchers plan the initial route based on the weather products at hand, but that could be hours prior to flight. This was about handling the dynamic weather changes minutes ahead. I can “ping” the company flight a few minutes ahead and see what his ride is like now, and not have to wait for an ACARS conversation with the dispatcher.
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If the story was purely about the app then they probably wouldn't have mentioned the OCC and the meteorologists who work there. Just saying it would have been nice to see dispatchers mentioned - I am sure they use data from this app as well when planning flights.
 
who'swho said:
I think they swapped out "Control" for "Customer" a couple years ago. XJT followed suit in the rush to curry favor with the all powerful DL overlords. Went over like a lead balloon in Dispatch.
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Kind of reminds me of United changing the name from Headquarters to "Corporate Support Center."
 
manniax said:
- I am sure they use data from this app as well when planning flights.
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I’m not 100% sure, but I don’t believe so. It’s a dynamic “right now” tool, not a planning tool. I do know I mentioned it to a dispatcher last month and he had no clue what I was talking about.

Yes, dispatchers are important, but ya know, pilots can make decisions without having to talk to a dispatcher! ;)

That’s what the article was about.
 
Cptnchia said:
I’m not 100% sure, but I don’t believe so. It’s a dynamic “right now” tool, not a planning tool. I do know I mentioned it to a dispatcher last month and he had no clue what I was talking about.

Yes, dispatchers are important, but ya know, pilots can make decisions without having to talk to a dispatcher! ;)

That’s what the article was about.
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I'll defer to the DL dispatchers on here on whether they know about the app, but I still think it would have been nice that an article that mentioned meteorology, turbulence avoidance, and the OCC also mentioned dispatchers...because they really should be getting some of the data regarding rides as well, to plan future flights more effectively and pass ride information along to flights that haven't entered a turbulent area yet.
 
manniax said:
I'll defer to the DL dispatchers on here on whether they know about the app, but I still think it would have been nice that an article that mentioned meteorology, turbulence avoidance, and the OCC also mentioned dispatchers...because they really should be getting some of the data regarding rides as well, to plan future flights more effectively and pass ride information along to flights that haven't entered a turbulent area yet.
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So, to satisfy my curiosity, I just called the dispatcher handling my next flight. According to him, they don’t use that app for planning or inputting data. He was aware of its existence, but didn’t even know how to access it since it’s an iOS app and the computers they use are windows based.
 
Cptnchia said:
So, to satisfy my curiosity, I just called the dispatcher handling my next flight. According to him, they don’t use that app for planning or inputting data. He was aware of its existence, but didn’t even know how to access it since it’s an iOS app and the computers they use are windows based.
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Unfortuantely, developing a product that is only accessible by flight crews is all too typical. And no, I'm not trying to say the dispatchers should be giving guidance on all your route decisions, but having the same data as you to know why you are making those decisions would be helpful for flight planning.
 
Cptnchia said:
So, to satisfy my curiosity, I just called the dispatcher handling my next flight. According to him, they don’t use that app for planning or inputting data. He was aware of its existence, but didn’t even know how to access it since it’s an iOS app and the computers they use are windows based.
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I believe there was an emulator for a short while that could be accessed through the intranet, but it's probably gone.

It isn't a planning tool, but it is also frustrating when we're looking at different information while trying to achieve the same outcome.
 
Cptnchia said:
Because it’s a story about the app, which is used real time in the air. Dispatchers are not part of the OODA loop for managing short term deviations around weather, either laterally or vertically. The data is derived from automated sensors aboard airborne aircraft and massaged by the meteorologists and then pushed out to the pilots, independent of the dispatcher’s desk.

Yes, dispatchers plan the initial route based on the weather products at hand, but that could be hours prior to flight. This was about handling the dynamic weather changes minutes ahead. I can “ping” the company flight a few minutes ahead and see what his ride is like now, and not have to wait for an ACARS conversation with the dispatcher.
Click to expand...

Delta isn't the only airline using these automated sensors. They have their limitations. If the sensors arent working properly, they may not put out anything for turbulence. They may also downplay or overstate the actual intensity of the turbulence.

In any case, pilots should want dispatchers to have access to it if only for planning purposes. If the automated reports are showing areas of turbulence not depicted on PIREP or weather charts, the dispatcher wouldn't have any clue until an angry pilot called him up asking him why he was planning his flights at such a bumpy altitude as shown on his ipad app. Remember that if there is no forecast for turbulence, PIREPs are the dispatchers only clue that there is any turbulence. If pilots at most or all airlines stop sending pireps to report turbulence and instead rely only on these apps that the dispatcher has no access to then the dispatcher is essentially blind.

It also comes close to violating 121.601.c. Dispatchers should be able to see the automated reports so they can send them along to flights further back to warn them of bad rides further ahead.
 
Flagship_dxer said:
Delta isn't the only airline using these automated sensors. They have their limitations. If the sensors arent working properly, they may not put out anything for turbulence. They may also downplay or overstate the actual intensity of the turbulence.

In any case, pilots should want dispatchers to have access to it if only for planning purposes. If the automated reports are showing areas of turbulence not depicted on PIREP or weather charts, the dispatcher wouldn't have any clue until an angry pilot called him up asking him why he was planning his flights at such a bumpy altitude as shown on his ipad app. Remember that if there is no forecast for turbulence, PIREPs are the dispatchers only clue that there is any turbulence. If pilots at most or all airlines stop sending pireps to report turbulence and instead rely only on these apps that the dispatcher has no access to then the dispatcher is essentially blind.

It also comes close to violating 121.601.c. Dispatchers should be able to see the automated reports so they can send them along to flights further back to warn them of bad rides further ahead.
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My understanding is that our meteorologists get the information, and do their magic on it. They then produce the relevant products for distribution to the pilots and dispatchers. Just because the dispatchers do not have access to the FWV app doesn’t mean that they are not getting the same information from another product.
 
Flagship_dxer said:
Delta isn't the only airline using these automated sensors. They have their limitations. If the sensors arent working properly, they may not put out anything for turbulence. .
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From my understanding most of the TAPS data is derived from essential ADC sensors, unless it's a ACARS coms issue, the plane won't be flying anyways if a sensor is wonky.

This is for the Fusion folks out there, if your airline participates in the TAPS reporting program your dispatchers have access to this data, if they don't it's an add on package for Fusion that can be purchased. While I don't work for TWC, I do have to give them credit for providing a solution that provides both pilots and dispatchers with the same data streams to further complete the "big picture" when it comes to flight operations.
 
I jumpseated on DAL and I was pretty curious about the turbulence app they were using. The crew was kind enough to break it down for me and show me how it works. It gives them a vertical representation of possible turbulence along their route based on Delta Weather forecasts and automated turbulence ping reports from other DAL aircraft. I have also sat with several meteorologist in the OCC aka "METRO". I was looking into possible positions in their meteorology department at the time. They use the automated turb pings from airborne aircraft as well as other wx products to develop their forecast maps and turb reports. They issue Turbulence Plots on their website which highlight areas of current turbulence in real-time, similar to how a sigmet works. These reports are instantly available to the crews enroute and the dispatcher for planning. So the information is basically the same. The dispatcher won't get a vertical profile of live turbulence along the route, as they don't need it and the crew already has it. But the dispatcher has enough to do their planning based on the same information.
 
HAYESP11 said:
I jumpseated on DAL and I was pretty curious about the turbulence app they were using. The crew was kind enough to break it down for me and show me how it works. It gives them a vertical representation of possible turbulence along their route based on Delta Weather forecasts and automated turbulence ping reports from other DAL aircraft. I have also sat with several meteorologist in the OCC aka "METRO". I was looking into possible positions in their meteorology department at the time. They use the automated turb pings from airborne aircraft as well as other wx products to develop their forecast maps and turb reports. They issue Turbulence Plots on their website which highlight areas of current turbulence in real-time, similar to how a sigmet works. These reports are instantly available to the crews enroute and the dispatcher for planning. So the information is basically the same. The dispatcher won't get a vertical profile of live turbulence along the route, as they don't need it and the crew already has it. But the dispatcher has enough to do their planning based on the same information.
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What you describe cuts the dispatcher out from performing 161.601 duties for flights enroute. Essentially, the meteorologist sends the weather info to the crews instead of the dispatcher. I bet pilots are already bypassing the dispatcher at Delta for weather questions and calling the meteorologists instead. It also gives Delta another excuse to add more releases to the workload and sets the stage for demands to cut dispatcher pay. We dont make six figure money to just send out releases.
 
Eskhobbs said:
From my understanding most of the TAPS data is derived from essential ADC sensors, unless it's a ACARS coms issue, the plane won't be flying anyways if a sensor is wonky.

This is for the Fusion folks out there, if your airline participates in the TAPS reporting program your dispatchers have access to this data, if they don't it's an add on package for Fusion that can be purchased. While I don't work for TWC, I do have to give them credit for providing a solution that provides both pilots and dispatchers with the same data streams to further complete the "big picture" when it comes to flight operations.
Click to expand...


I’ll have to ask about TAPS. I don’t think we subscribe to that.
 
Flagship_dxer said:
What you describe cuts the dispatcher out from performing 161.601 duties for flights enroute. Essentially, the meteorologist sends the weather info to the crews instead of the dispatcher. I bet pilots are already bypassing the dispatcher at Delta for weather questions and calling the meteorologists instead. It also gives Delta another excuse to add more releases to the workload and sets the stage for demands to cut dispatcher pay. We dont make six figure money to just send out releases.
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Wrong. Pilots have no way to talk with Metro. All comms route through the dispatch desk. All Metro does is produce the weather products. One for the pilots, one for the dispatchers. It’s the same info, just distributed through two different channels. As for violating 161, since the FAA signed off on this set up, I’m gonna go with, no, it doesn’t violate anything.
 
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