Update: UPS flight dispatchers are asking to be paid like counterparts at Delta, American

crow said:
From my experience negotiating a payscale at the regional level (which is obviously much different than the negotiations happening at major carriers) I can say that as far as pay negotiations go the company doesn't care about things such as cost of living in their city vs the cost of living in the city of rival companies. To them, pay is a budget line item they have to justify to the CEO/Board/Shareholders. That's not to say that they don't figure in dynamics of the workplace market when deciding what to pay non-contract employees (for example paying below industry standard wages for staff at headquarters because you conveniently located your company in a smaller community where you happen to the biggest employer vs a bigger city with more opportunities).

Since, however, the company looks strictly at what their cost of labor is relative to their competition within contract work groups (and you had better believe the big wigs talk about this when they get together for industry meetings), it would behoove unions to share contract information amongst themselves and look at the same things the company is: what a dispatcher makes at company A vs at companies B, C, and D. We as a collective of work groups shouldn't factor in cost of living of our peers when fighting for a new labor agreement. Not only is it irrelevant when holding discussions with management (who don't care), it is potentially screwing yourself out of future earnings by saying "My cost of living is x% cheaper than my peers at Smisek Airlines so I shouldn't be trying for as much money as them" AND it does nothing but weaken the bargaining position of your counterparts at other airlines when their next contract comes up. Which, in turn, weakens your position again when your next contract comes up.

The only time the cost of living vs level of pay calculus needs to be done is when you, the individual, decides whether you want to accept a position at company A or if you would rather wait for an opportunity with company B.

Now, if you want to argue the importance and monetary value of Quality of Life items in a contract and how much money each of those items are worth, that is for each union to decide on its own. Personally, I don't think this is a place to argue that math since each company's operation is so different that there is no real way to compare apples to apples on that point. My thoughts on what the discussion should be are: A) #teamGetPaid and B) "we have this in our contract, do you have something similar" and if not then C) "have you guys considered this idea to get added in to your contract?".
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Great! I’m with you about negotiating yourself out of money saying cost of living is cheaper wherever, that wasn’t exactly my point. I was merely expounding on an idea earlier presented that I thought was ineteresting, and this is all hypothetical anyways. That being said, when UA goes back to the table could the inverse be a tool by which to squeeze a few more dollars out?
 
Altimeter said:
That being said, when UA goes back to the table could the inverse be a tool by which to squeeze a few more dollars out?
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No, and that was my point. The company doesn't care about cost of living. They only care about what you make as a dollar figure in relation to the competition. That's why if ATL is 10% cheaper than Chicago United was only able to get Delta+3% in their contract.
 
Altimeter said:
Great! I’m with you about negotiating yourself out of money saying cost of living is cheaper wherever, that wasn’t exactly my point. I was merely expounding on an idea earlier presented that I thought was ineteresting, and this is all hypothetical anyways. That being said, when UA goes back to the table could the inverse be a tool by which to squeeze a few more dollars out?
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I really hope for the sake of your unknowing passengers that you understand dispatching better than contracts. So far every post you have thrown out on this thread has been ill-informed and shows that you'd rather push your opinion onto others as facts than to discuss anything. Please don't defend yourself either because this thread has weeks of your venomous comments to cite.

I will add one thing to this discussion that hasn't been addressed thus far. UPS's EBIT or Operating Income was almost the exact same last year as AAL and SWA combined and 1Q18 it was up 14%. Company earnings matter and if you think they don't then ask every single Dispatcher who has ever had a contract signed during a bankruptcy. You will find that has been the very reason many Dispatchers and Pilots alike have had to settle for below industry standard.
 
Mainline_or_bust said:
I really hope for the sake of your unknowing passengers that you understand dispatching better than contracts. So far every post you have thrown out on this thread has been ill-informed and shows that you'd rather push your opinion onto others as facts than to discuss anything. Please don't defend yourself either because this thread has weeks of your venomous comments to cite.

I will add one thing to this discussion that hasn't been addressed thus far. UPS's EBIT or Operating Income was almost the exact same last year as AAL and SWA combined and 1Q18 it was up 14%. Company earnings matter and if you think they don't then ask every single Dispatcher who has ever had a contract signed during a bankruptcy. You will find that has been the very reason many Dispatchers and Pilots alike have had to settle for below industry standard.
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Again, attack the ideas. Not the person. I just literally asked a question, how many of here have actually been apart of the nit and gritty of negotiations? I havnt. It’s a discussion. I’m trying to learn things I don’t know, or testing ideas that at least seem rational. Part of having a conversation is assuming the person you’re talking with knows something you don’t. Otherwise why have a conversation at all?
 
Altimeter said:
Again, attack the ideas. Not the person. I just literally asked a question, how many of here have actually been apart of the nit and gritty of negotiations? I havnt. It’s a discussion. I’m trying to learn things I don’t know, or testing ideas that at least seem rational. Part of having a conversation is assuming the person you’re talking with knows something you don’t. Otherwise why have a conversation at all?
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You don’t seem to accept or realize that the reason you get the responses you do by so many is due to the way you came out swinging in this thread. Your comments were incredibly inflammatory and misinformed, which resulted in several members calling you out on it. You weren’t asking questions, as you like to insist, you were spewing trash to get a response. And you did. Several. And although you eventually backed off on a few of your misguided opinions that were stated as facts, you’ve continued the inflammatory trend throughout even though you’ve convinced yourself that you’ve got a halo over your head. As a matter of fact you just attacked me again in one of your most recent posts, accusing me of several untruths. So maybe practice what you preach and we can all get along. ;-)

Further, several posts I’ve corrected the “ideas” and not the “person” as you insist we do, and even that has resulted in your inflammatory responses. You can’t have it both ways, and you certainly can’t have it your preferred way if you don’t follow your own rules.


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Back to the contract talk, thank you @crow for the insightful post with the perspective from having actual experience in the negotiation process.

I tried to make the point a few times that one can’t compare base wages alone and throw in cost of living to determine what a fair contract would be. Comparing base wages and coming up with a hypothetical percentage of the differences between several airline’s pay and calling that a fair contract comparison is pointless. Fighting for a fair contract isn’t just about pay. Each group has secured a contract that includes multiple other benefits that ultimately increases our pay from the base scale as well as our quality of life. All of these things are researched, studied and compared for use during the negotiation process.

As far as I’m aware the location of a domicile or hub has never been a determining factor in the compensation we’ve all been able to secure in our contracts. The method of choice has been to leap frog the last in order to secure better wages for all in the industry. Honestly, location hasn’t been used as a negotiating tool that I’ve ever heard of. The industry compares wages against others doing similar work and a standard is defined. Can you imagine a pilot group accepting less based on their domicile? Imagine a Delta captain making 10% more than another Delta captain who’s based in another city where the cost of living is less. Or how about accepting less profit sharing depending on location of the domicile? Or conversely, employees located in more expensive cities getting overrides to make up for the difference? Nope, just doesn’t work that way. Not for pilots, not for dispatchers. This applies across all airlines. Unions have consistently leap frogged the last contract in order to advance the industry as a whole.


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Altimeter said:
Now I get you can't or why you wouldn't disclose your pay scale, its at least somewhat confidential, but "IF" UPS's top of scale is close to those figures, would it be fair to in the least make a claim that you are paid fairly?
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26% less than industry standard is not being paid fairly.




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womanpilot73 said:
As far as I’m aware the location of a domicile or hub has never been a determining factor in the compensation we’ve all been able to secure in our contracts. The method of choice has been to leap frog the last in order to secure better wages for all in the industry. Honestly, location hasn’t been used as a negotiating tool that I’ve ever heard of. The industry compares wages against others doing similar work and a standard is defined. Can you imagine a pilot group accepting less based on their domicile? Imagine a Delta captain making 10% more than another Delta captain who’s based in another city where the cost of living is less. Or how about accepting less profit sharing depending on location of the domicile? Or conversely, employees located in more expensive cities getting overrides to make up for the difference? Nope, just doesn’t work that way. Not for pilots, not for dispatchers. This applies across all airlines. Unions have consistently leap frogged the last contract in order to advance the industry as a whole.
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This is true, and you also can’t count on your office location never changing. I’ve had my office move on more than one occasion, and major/large air carrier employees are not immune to this...ask anyone formerly at America West, US Airways, Continental, or most recently Virgin America about that process for more details. This is not to say cost of living should not be a factor when deciding which employer you want to apply to...but don’t count on it being a factor in negotiations over your work group’s negotiations for an industry standard contract.
 
manniax said:
This is true, and you also can’t count on your office location never changing. I’ve had my office move on more than one occasion, and major/large air carrier employees are not immune to this...ask anyone formerly at America West, US Airways, Continental, or most recently Virgin America about that process for more details. This is not to say cost of living should not be a factor when deciding which employer you want to apply to...but don’t count on it being a factor in negotiations over your work group’s negotiations for an industry standard contract.
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Certainly true. And the sword definitely cuts the other way. I imagine those that got displaced from Long Island to Cincinnati Found that their buying power went from 1BR loft to 4 BR house on an acre with a privacy gate.

There are a few myths that seem to propagate any time one talks about contracts in the airline. One is that all contracts are created equal. Not even close. Let's talk about 401K. I saw a comment here stipulating that a 401K cuts into your earnings. Just because a dollar doesn't land in your wallet doesn't mean it's not pay. Here at WN, our contact has a 9.3% match on a 401K. In other words, if we contribute 9.3% of our pay to our 401K, we effectively earn a 9.3% pay raise from the match. That I don't get to go out and buy phat lewt with that tomorrow isn't the point. 401K money that is vested is MY money. Not the companies, not Uncle Sam's (yet), it's mine. If I leave Southwest (provided I've met the vesting requirements) it's mine. Contributing to the 401K at the maximum rate is also not compulsory. Can't say that about a pension. Pension money is only your money when you receive it in your bank account. Any time before that it can be taken away. Because of that, it's inappropriate in my opinion to consider pension money as a factor of payrate. Another is offsets and bonuses. They are great tools to hide money in a contract. If one were to look at the base pay of the WN contract (I believe it's floating around on the Internet somewhere.. Shouldn't be hard to find if you wanna look) it's pretty nice. When you consider the additional earnings afforded through offsets, bonuses, and overtime rules, that moves the dial WAY up. Even without a minute of overtime a typical WN employee will bag an additional 5% to 20% above their scale just from offsets and bonuses. If you're ambitious you could raise that bar to close to 100% or even higher. We have guys here at the top of the scale that have bagged hundreds of hours of overtime, much of that paid at double time. Point being, base pay is not the end all-be all of contract negotiations. If your negotiating team is talking about nothing but base pay, you need a new negotiating team. The local needs to approach the negotiating table with a "help me help you" attitude and a willingness to give something to get something.

Remember folks, you can shear a sheep many times, but you can only skin it once. There are a lot of moving parts to consider when negotiating a contract, and as much as it seems vogue to adopt an "Us vs. The Company" attitude, you can't lose sight of the common goal; longevity and profitability. Many companies approach that in different ways. Some companies still think that coming to the negotiating table with a "you're gonna kill our profits" attitude seem to forget that they're publicly traded and everybody on the friggin planet knows what their P&L chart looks like, and there are unions that approach the table thinking "you guys are making a killing off our backs" attitude and feel entitled to those profits. Capitalism has been around long enough to bear out the fact that profitable businesses tend to stay in business, and businesses that remain in business don't tend to street all of their employees. If you look at worker sentiment at various airlines you'll quickly figure out how important that factor is. A happy workforce is a productive workforce. One need not look any further than United frontline employees vs. Southwest's. If you took a company wide survey right now about employee sentiment towards their management at United and Southwest I would bet real money that the word "remarkable" wouldn't adequately describe the disparity between the two. Southwest employees are happy, and because they're happy they feel motivated to uplift and advocate for the company, and because they do that customers come back, and because they do Southwest has been in the green every quarter since 1973, long before the staff at WN had industry leading contracts. When a company stops thinking of their employees as liabilities and starts treating them like assets that are valuable, worthy, and considerable then the rest of the issues tend to sort themselves out. I can't tell you how much our opinion of management was uplifted when THEY came to US FIRST at amendment time and offered us a reasonable contract. Sure, not everything here is rainbows and unicorn farts, but the problems we do have aren't met with "eff you, plebe" like they are sometimes at other establishments.
 
pljenkins said:
There are a few myths that seem to propagate any time one talks about contracts in the airline. One is that all contracts are created equal. Not even close. Let's talk about 401K. I saw a comment here stipulating that a 401K cuts into your earnings. Just because a dollar doesn't land in your wallet doesn't mean it's not pay. Here at WN, our contact has a 9.3% match on a 401K. In other words, if we contribute 9.3% of our pay to our 401K, we effectively earn a 9.3% pay raise from the match. That I don't get to go out and buy phat lewt with that tomorrow isn't the point. 401K money that is vested is MY money. Not the companies, not Uncle Sam's (yet), it's mine. If I leave Southwest (provided I've met the vesting requirements) it's mine. Contributing to the 401K at the maximum rate is also not compulsory. Can't say that about a pension. Pension money is only your money when you receive it in your bank account. Any time before that it can be taken away. Because of that, it's inappropriate in my opinion to consider pension money as a factor of payrate. Another is offsets and bonuses. They are great tools to hide money in a contract. If one were to look at the base pay of the WN contract (I believe it's floating around on the Internet somewhere.. Shouldn't be hard to find if you wanna look) it's pretty nice. When you consider the additional earnings afforded through offsets, bonuses, and overtime rules, that moves the dial WAY up. Even without a minute of overtime a typical WN employee will bag an additional 5% to 20% above their scale just from offsets and bonuses. If you're ambitious you could raise that bar to close to 100% or even higher. We have guys here at the top of the scale that have bagged hundreds of hours of overtime, much of that paid at double time. Point being, base pay is not the end all-be all of contract negotiations. If your negotiating team is talking about nothing but base pay, you need a new negotiating team. The local needs to approach the negotiating table with a "help me help you" attitude and a willingness to give something to get something.
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This was the point I tried to make a few times to a few trying to compare contracts on base pay only.

Oh yeah, and 9.3%!!! Good for you guys!




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pljenkins said:
Southwest employees are happy, and because they're happy they feel motivated to uplift and advocate for the company, and because they do that customers come back, and because they do Southwest has been in the green every quarter since 1973, long before the staff at WN had industry leading contracts. When a company stops thinking of their employees as liabilities and starts treating them like assets that are valuable, worthy, and considerable then the rest of the issues tend to sort themselves out. I can't tell you how much our opinion of management was uplifted when THEY came to US FIRST at amendment time and offered us a reasonable contract. Sure, not everything here is rainbows and unicorn farts, but the problems we do have aren't met with "eff you, plebe" like they are sometimes at other establishments.
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So what you’re saying is, you’re #livinthedream :D




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Atlanta said:
Ok Bernie.. Want and need are very different.
Burger flippers want 15 an hr but claim they need it.
UPS wants a better contract they don’t need one to survive.
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Nobody is saying they need it, people are saying they deserve it. I would want something I deserve. Would you say sports stars need to make $40,000,000 rather than $30,000,000? No. But if the owners are making a billion dollars a year from said sports stars they would deserve a bigger chunk of the revenue they themselves are generating for the top.

It's not about need or want, it's about fairness.
 
Atlanta said:
Ok Bernie.. Want and need are very different.
Burger flippers want 15 an hr but claim they need it.
UPS wants a better contract they don’t need one to survive.
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Wow ATLANTA... are you getting paid just enough to survive? And even if you are do you not WANT and feel like you NEED more money then just enough to survive?
Ridiculous lol
 
Flagship_dxer said:
A pension is way more valuable than our tiny non-guaranteed profit sharing and our small 401K match.
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Tell that to all the legacy guys who lost their pension after 9/11.

For myself I’d rather have a retirement plan I control rather than a company pension that can disappear at any time.

Looking at the UPS numbers, I see that the $ is at the lower end of the spectrum, but that is counterbalanced by their pension. Would the UPS dispatchers give up pension for more $ and a 401k match?
 
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