"Climb via" vs "descend via" technique in CRJ

[STS-41B]

Maybe it's unique to my company, maybe not. But why when we're departing and given a "Climb via" do we set the top altitude, and monitor any other restrictions on the way up, but when given a "descend via" we don't set the bottom altitude; instead most captains I fly with insist on setting the next crossing restriction, and do it step by step all the way down.
There are some who adjust the VNAV angle and set the bottom altitude and follow the snowflake down, but that's very rare. I prefer that method but most captains will flip out if I do it..
I know at the majors they set the bottom but they have more sophisticated VNAV guidance probably....

 

[Cptnchia]

I know at the majors they set the bottom but they have more sophisticated VNAV guidance probably....

You just answered your own question. Without auto throttles, the CRJ does not have a true VNAV system.

 

[Jordan93]

A lot of it has to do with not understanding what the snowflake is doing. Coupled with the DIR INTC page and you should make every crossing restriction.

 

[Old Pete]

A lot of it has to do with not understanding what the snowflake is doing. Coupled with the DIR INTC page and you should make every crossing restriction.

I don't trust snowflakes.

 

[Ian_J]

Maybe it's unique to my company, maybe not. But why when we're departing and given a "Climb via" do we set the top altitude, and monitor any other restrictions on the way up, but when given a "descend via" we don't set the bottom altitude; instead most captains I fly with insist on setting the next crossing restriction, and do it step by step all the way down.
There are some who adjust the VNAV angle and set the bottom altitude and follow the snowflake down, but that's very rare. I prefer that method but most captains will flip out if I do it..
I know at the majors they set the bottom but they have more sophisticated VNAV guidance probably....

What Jordan said. And some companies set the first hard altitude, and each subsequent hard altitude without setting the above, below or between altitudes.

 

[trafficinsight]

A lot of it has to do with not understanding what the snowflake is doing. Coupled with the DIR INTC page and you should make every crossing restriction.

I don't trust snowflakes.

I don't trust anyone over 30.

I never used the snowflake much but I used the banana a lot, it really made descents easy.



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[Maximilian_Jenius]

Maybe it's unique to my company, maybe not. But why when we're departing and given a "Climb via" do we set the top altitude, and monitor any other restrictions on the way up, but when given a "descend via" we don't set the bottom altitude; instead most captains I fly with insist on setting the next crossing restriction, and do it step by step all the way down.
There are some who adjust the VNAV angle and set the bottom altitude and follow the snowflake down, but that's very rare. I prefer that method but most captains will flip out if I do it..
I know at the majors they set the bottom but they have more sophisticated VNAV guidance probably....

Why do your captains flip the f out, if you have a different (but safe) method other than theirs?

 

[Inverted25]

I know at the majors they set the bottom but they have more sophisticated VNAV guidance probably....

You just answered your own question. Without auto throttles, the CRJ does not have a true VNAV system.

Explain this answer to me. I fly corporate jets without autothrottles with the proline 4 avionics and our VNAV will meet every crossing restriction. You just have to control the airspeed via throttles.

 

[Cptnchia]

Explain this answer to me. I fly corporate jets without autothrottles with the proline 4 avionics and our VNAV will meet every crossing restriction. You just have to control the airspeed via throttles.

Annnd, with a full, true VNAV system, I sit there and drink coffee while the ATs control airspeed. Figured it’d be obvious enough.

 

[Inverted25]

Explain this answer to me. I fly corporate jets without autothrottles with the proline 4 avionics and our VNAV will meet every crossing restriction. You just have to control the airspeed via throttles.

Annnd, with a full, true VNAV system, I sit there and drink coffee while the ATs control airspeed. Figured it’d be obvious enough.

I figured it was obvious VNAV stood for vertical navigation. Not vertical and speed navigation. Not being a dick but I think it’s misleading to tell someone they don’t have a full VNAV because they don’t have auto throttles. The VNAV functions as it should. I think a better statement would have been “ and with auto throttles you don’t even have to monitor speed restrictions.”

 

[trafficinsight]

Explain this answer to me. I fly corporate jets without autothrottles with the proline 4 avionics and our VNAV will meet every crossing restriction. You just have to control the airspeed via throttles.

Annnd, with a full, true VNAV system, I sit there and drink coffee while the ATs control airspeed. Figured it’d be obvious enough.

Good for you!

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[JordanD]

Explain this answer to me. I fly corporate jets without autothrottles with the proline 4 avionics and our VNAV will meet every crossing restriction. You just have to control the airspeed via throttles.

Annnd, with a full, true VNAV system, I sit there and drink coffee while the ATs control airspeed. Figured it’d be obvious enough.

I figured it was obvious VNAV stood for vertical navigation. Not vertical and speed navigation. Not being a dick but I think it’s misleading to tell someone they don’t have a full VNAV because they don’t have auto throttles. The VNAV functions as it should. I think a better statement would have been “ and with auto throttles you don’t even have to monitor speed restrictions.”

Except you do, because most arrivals it's "is it gonna bug the speed reduction? Oh look, it skipped the 230 and is trying to cross it at 210."

Or if you're not paying attention and you have 1.5 miles for a 30 knot speed reduction... hello full boards.

 

[Cptnchia]

Good for you!

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Yep. After close to 3000 PIC hours in a CRJ I earned it!

 

[Cptnchia]

I figured it was obvious VNAV stood for vertical navigation. Not vertical and speed navigation. Not being a dick but I think it’s misleading to tell someone they don’t have a full VNAV because they don’t have auto throttles. The VNAV functions as it should. I think a better statement would have been “ and with auto throttles you don’t even have to monitor speed restrictions.”

Gee, some of y’all get triggered so easily. Like I said, I’ve flown that POS. 3000 hours worth. And now I enjoy drinking beer outta its new recycled self.

 

[skatergeek]

Annnd, with a full, true VNAV system, I sit there and drink coffee while the ATs attempt to control airspeed. Figured it’d be obvious enough.

Fixed it for the 88.

 

[skatergeek]

But why when we're departing and given a "Climb via" do we set the top altitude, and monitor any other restrictions on the way up, but when given a "descend via" we don't set the bottom altitude; instead most captains I fly with insist on setting the next crossing restriction, and do it step by step all the way down.

Well most of the climb vias are “at or above” so the top altitude works. Yea there are some with a couple “at or below” restrictions, and for me in the CRJ, id put that first hard altitude. All it takes is a small distraction and ya blown through it. Seen it happen many times....same with the descend via. Just easier to put a lil protection in there for yourself.

 

[norcalpilot25]

Explain this answer to me. I fly corporate jets without autothrottles with the proline 4 avionics and our VNAV will meet every crossing restriction. You just have to control the airspeed via throttles.

Annnd, with a full, true VNAV system, I sit there and drink coffee while the ATs control airspeed. Figured it’d be obvious enough.

I figured it was obvious VNAV stood for vertical navigation. Not vertical and speed navigation. Not being a dick but I think it’s misleading to tell someone they don’t have a full VNAV because they don’t have auto throttles. The VNAV functions as it should. I think a better statement would have been “ and with auto throttles you don’t even have to monitor speed restrictions.”

Except the CRJ doesn’t have VNAV of any type. There is no VNAV button on the MCP. You can get a vertical speed required for the next crossing altitude from the FMS but you have to manually change the vertical speed on the MCP. The CRJ has a very old version of the proline system. So it’s not just the absence of auto throttles.

 

[Jordan93]

Except the CRJ doesn’t have VNAV of any type. There is no VNAV button on the MCP. You can get a vertical speed required for the next crossing altitude from the FMS but you have to manually change the vertical speed on the MCP. The CRJ has a very old version of the proline system. So it’s not just the absence of auto throttles.

Several XJ planes have a VNAV button on the FCP. It’s an option. I think most operators do not pay for it though. Without autothrottles it’s pretty useless though.

 

[norcalpilot25]

Except the CRJ doesn’t have VNAV of any type. There is no VNAV button on the MCP. You can get a vertical speed required for the next crossing altitude from the FMS but you have to manually change the vertical speed on the MCP. The CRJ has a very old version of the proline system. So it’s not just the absence of auto throttles.

Several XJ planes have a VNAV button on the FCP. It’s an option. I think most operators do not pay for it though. Without autothrottles it’s pretty useless though.

Ah didn’t know that. None of the CRJs I ever flew had that option.

 

[trafficinsight]

Except the CRJ doesn’t have VNAV of any type. There is no VNAV button on the MCP. You can get a vertical speed required for the next crossing altitude from the FMS but you have to manually change the vertical speed on the MCP. The CRJ has a very old version of the proline system. So it’s not just the absence of auto throttles.

Several XJ planes have a VNAV button on the FCP. It’s an option. I think most operators do not pay for it though. Without autothrottles it’s pretty useless though.

Why would it be useless?

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