Four killed in BOW crash

drunkenbeagle said:
Without looking at a NOTAM, how do you know that? The Delta tower may have been closed at the time, making it Golf airspace. Possibly legal in that case.

Picking up clearances after departing IMC without a flight plan or clearance is something I personally try to avoid though, there are just way too many ways for things to go wrong.
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I seem to remember class D reverting to E when the tower is closed, not G.
 
z987k said:
drunkenbeagle said:
Without looking at a NOTAM, how do you know that? The Delta tower may have been closed at the time, making it Golf airspace. Possibly legal in that case. Picking up clearances after departing IMC without a flight plan or clearance is something I personally try to avoid though, there are just way too many ways for things to go wrong.
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I seem to remember class D reverting to E when the tower is closed, not G.
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Can go both ways, depends on the airport. Usually depends on weather reporting being available, and having a way to contact clearance delivery. And this can be changed by NOTAM. It was also totally a question on my CFI Oral, which I got mostly right (passed the ride, so I must have been close ;)
 
Box hauler said:
ComplexHiAv8r said:
I did a 0/0 TO on my Instrument ride. It was already planned for me to take him to another airport. It was ok when I landed but fog by the time the oral was over... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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You did a 0/0 on your checkride? How did you find the runway or see the centerline ?
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Centerline lights and examiner was a CO (Continental) CA. Yes, it has been many years. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Regarding preventing a pilot from doing something unsafe or questionable, the best I can do is make a suggestion not to with a reason why. Ultimately, if a pilot is hell bent on doing something unsafe or questionable, then there isn't a heck of a lot I can physically do to prevent it. I'm not the FAA. Best thing I can do is respond to the crash site in a timely manner.
 
dustoff17 said:
thegriffinpages said:
...............This is just a question and I am no pilot! But... If you see someone about to do something stupid, is it an unwritten rule you go hint to them that “flying today might not be a good idea” or stay out of their business?
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A local CFII, having just landed told JFK, Jr. something along these lines: "The weather is REALLY bad out there tonight. If you're not instrument rated, you better not go!" I agree with @fholbert, you can try but you can't stop. IMHO, we have an obligation to the industry to try....
PhilosopherPilot said:
Is he a helicopter pilot? If so, he doesn't really have the experience with fixed wing to know what he's talking about for takeoff mins. I dunno. Even if it's true that the weather was too bad for takeoff, it shouldn't be said on TV. At least, not until the investigation is complete. Hell, the bodies were still in the smoking airframe. Poor form. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Not a fair statement! I happen to be both and as far as we know, so is the pilot that was interviewed. Even a helicopter pilot can see and, the more advanced ones can maybe even read a weather report. Some of them can even open a door and look out!
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Misses the point still... While it's true that we don't know if he's dual rated or not, can we not agree that if he ISN'T, he has no business saying if the visibility for a fixed wing takeoff is appropriate or not? How would you know if you've never even performed that type of low vis takeoff yourself? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
For the record, helicopter instrument flying and airplane instrument flying are the same, with a few exceptions: copter-specific approaches that exist, the ability to reduce published visibility on fixed-wing instrument approaches (unless NA), VDPs don't matter, and circling procedures don't pertain. Aside from that, they're the same.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Misses the point still... While it's true that we don't know if he's dual rated or not, can we not agree that if he ISN'T, he has no business saying if the visibility for a fixed wing takeoff is appropriate or not? How would you know if you've never even performed that type of low vis takeoff yourself? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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How do you think helicopters depart into IMC? The same way airplanes do, with the exception that they can do it at slower speeds. Otherwise an IMC departure is an IMC departure. There's no fixed wing rocket science here.
 
MikeD said:
PhilosopherPilot said:
Misses the point still... While it's true that we don't know if he's dual rated or not, can we not agree that if he ISN'T, he has no business saying if the visibility for a fixed wing takeoff is appropriate or not? How would you know if you've never even performed that type of low vis takeoff yourself? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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How do you think helicopters depart into IMC? The same way airplanes do, with the exception that they can do it at slower speeds. Otherwise an IMC departure is an IMC departure. There's no fixed wing rocket science here.
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I'm just saying I wouldn't comment on a helicopter departure, because I don't know much about their operations. They may be a lot alike, but you are dual rated, so you have a unique perspective to KNOW that they are the same. I don't know that. Getting off topic. This all falls under the "don't speculate about an accident, especially on TV." Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Can go both ways, depends on the airport. Usually depends on weather reporting being available, and having a way to contact clearance delivery. And this can be changed by NOTAM. It was also totally a question on my CFI Oral, which I got mostly right (passed the ride, so I must have been close ;)
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I've seen a few Class C airports that revert to Class G when the tower is closed. One was a misprint, the others I'm not sure of.
Look at XNA and CBM.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I'm just saying I wouldn't comment on a helicopter departure, because I don't know much about their operations. They may be a lot alike, but you are dual rated, so you have a unique perspective to KNOW that they are the same. I don't know that. Getting off topic. This all falls under the "don't speculate about an accident, especially on TV." Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I think you would be surprised how many of us are dual rated.

And while the physical manipulation of controls is obviously different, the principle of maintaining attitude, heading, trim, and airspeed to set standard +/- X is identical.

There really is nothing unique to a helicopter IfR departure vs a fixed wing departure except I have the additional option to do it from a runway or a hover. Either way it’s the same process.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I'm just saying I wouldn't comment on a helicopter departure, because I don't know much about their operations. They may be a lot alike, but you are dual rated, so you have a unique perspective to KNOW that they are the same. I don't know that. Getting off topic. This all falls under the "don't speculate about an accident, especially on TV." Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Agree the sheriff shouldn't be speculating causation to the media. But he wasn't the helo pilot, I believe..

The helo pilot, don't just automatically assume they don't know anything when it comes to common stuff, such as WX. Weather affects airplanes and helicopters, and their pilots, the same. Everything from physiological such as spatial disorientation effects, to aerodynamic such as icing. It's a common thing to aviation in general, not Category specific. So one can comment that "I probably wouldn't have been departing in those conditions," and they'd most likely be correct regardless of what they fly. Whether or not that was directly causal would come out later, sure.

All I'm saying is just be careful being too critical of someone when you yourself may not be aware of what it is they know when it comes to their IFR ops, and respective capabilities and limitations. Probably would've been better to just ask "hey, would a helo-only pilot be qualified to make X judgement?" And you would've learned something new.
 
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ATN_Pilot said:
Haven't verified myself, but people over on the Twin Cessna forum are saying he didn't have an IFR flight plan filed.
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FlightAware doesn't show a filed flight plan. If the guy did what I often do, just ask ground / approach for a pop-up clearance to VOTP, I'm not sure it would show.
 
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fholbert said:
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FlightAware doesn't show a filed flight plan. If the guy did what I often do, just ask ground / approach for a pop-up clearance to VOTP, I'm not sure it would show.
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I'm not sure it would even show up if it wasn't opened, I think they automatically cancel after 4 hours. I would guess they would have filed, I always do around here on similar flights. Normally just easier to do so around here.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
I'm not sure it would even show up if it wasn't opened, I think they automatically cancel after 4 hours. I would guess they would have filed, I always do around here on similar flights. Normally just easier to do so around here.
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Jesus that’s a morbid thought when you think about the process actually playing out with this particular flight.....
 
drunkenbeagle said:
I'm not sure it would even show up if it wasn't opened, I think they automatically cancel after 4 hours. I would guess they would have filed, I always do around here on similar flights. Normally just easier to do so around here.
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Fligjt plans drop after 2 hours from the proposed departure time. If you just call up ATC for a pop up clearance it probably wouldn't show because we just enter it into the FDIO or give you a local only code, but we don't have FSS file anything which is what would cause it to show in flightaware
 
Lawman said:
Jesus that’s a morbid thought when you think about the process actually playing out with this particular flight.....
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Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing as I wrote this. I'm flying some friends on a similar route in a few days. They have obviously asked about this today.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
I'm not sure it would even show up if it wasn't opened, I think they automatically cancel after 4 hours. I would guess they would have filed, I always do around here on similar flights. Normally just easier to do so around here.
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I'd think an IFR Release on a filed flight plan would open it. No?

I was an ATC'er pre-internet.
 
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