Alaska/Virgin arbitration

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

more like wtf are you talking about. what does an ALPA contract have to do with anything? you are touting its a good deal because they got a raise...not even to industry standard. What you fail to mention is their scope protection was denied, their rate request was denied, pretty much everything the pilots asked for was denied. How about let's ask someone who actually works there how they feel about the decision? @Cherokee_Cruiser would you consider the ruling a good or a bad thing?

Wheelsup is looking at simply a percentage of the payraise, and if that's your only metric then I suppose it's good news. But it's the overall picture that counts, and our ALPA proposals were all shot down. The final payrates aren't much higher than what Alaska had proposed. It's basically $2-5/hr more than company proposal. Everything else we proposed or asked for we lost. In comparison to AA, DL, UA, SW, and even Hawaiian, it pales in comparison when you look at the overall picture of scope and work rules. Pay is NOT everything! AS work rules suck, real bad.

I don’t work there, but if that were a TA up for a vote at my shop, it would be a big fat NO vote. Scope is WAY more important than pay rate. I don’t know enough about their work rules, but the lack of scope alone is enough to vote no.

Yup. And management knew this. They knew the combined pilot group would not vote on anything that didn't have scope in it. They did not want scope. Since the current Alaska 2013 contract requires arbitration as a backend/stop to a JCBA, management knew their worse case was to send it all to arbitration and take the gamble there. To be honest though it wasn't really a gamble for management. They knew we wouldn't get scope. It's always been ruled as too complex an issue, arbitrators don't want to be seen as ruling something that directly impacts the business model of the airline, the fact that Alaska "already" complies with the proposed 76 seat/86k lb limit proposed by ALPA, and most importantly the past scope negotiation history at Alaska in 2008 and 2013. They rolled over every time. The AS pilot group has always put more importance and capital on their payrates than they did on scope. So the arbitrators basically wrote all these reasons down as they denied ALPA proposals on scope.

the only problem is since they chose arbitration they don't even get to vote on it....but yes i'm in agreement with you and thats exactly the point im trying to make.

My (admittedly weak) understanding is that it was in the Alaska CBA that any integration would be arbitrated. But I don't know that for a fact.

We didn't chose, it was already a defined process in Alaska's 2013 contract. Direct negotiations, mediated negotiations, and once an impasse declared, off to arbitration. The entire process was followed. We did negotiate, it didn't go anywhere.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Well neither had scope those are all status quo.

Virgin guys got a big raise and are complaining...yep sounds like pilots to me.

Read above. It's more than just pay. So far from switching to Alaskas profit share and operational bonus, I've taken a paycut. Last year for the operational bonus I got ~$1,400 under VX's scheme, this year under AS = $0. 2016 FY profit share at VX paid out 12.25%, AS barely 8%. That's another paycut.

Living in base, at VX I can easily do 90 hrs credit per month and have 16 days off per month. Under AS, all lines are pre-built 75-85 max (some flex months drive it higher). But lines are capped, and there is also a upper limit on how much you can swap and add credit to your line. On a typical 15-16 day off line, I will now only get ~78-85 hrs credit. For the same amount of days I work now, I will earn less hours. So this will be another paycut once I'm on their rules.

We have personal days at VX which I usually cash out. AS doesn't have any. Another paycut

Our reserves get 13 days off per month, AS gets 12. If I upgrade and go on reserve, that's 12 less days off per year. What cost do you put on that? And the QOL? Another virtual paycut.

Alaskas line system and step trading has less flexibility than what I have now. Another paycut


I get 125% on anything above 80 hrs credit per month, this VX provision is gone as of Dec 1st as we switch to AS system. Another paycut

24 hr layovers have an extra min day pay in our pairings (add 3.5 hrs). This is gone Dec 1st. Another paycut

There are other examples. Those are off the top of my head. We will be transitioned over to the AS stuff soon, but you know it's bad when you're told "it's actually in our interest to stay on our stuff as long as possible....."

So @wheelsup , no I didn't just get a 30%. While it looks that way for actual hourly rate itself, once you take out all the stuff I'm losing for the switch to Alaska's contract, the "actual realized" pay increase is much less!!!!

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Read above. It's more than just pay. So far from switching to Alaskas profit share and operational bonus, I've taken a paycut. Last year for the operational bonus I got ~$1,400 under VX's scheme, this year under AS = $0. 2016 FY profit share at VX paid out 12.25%, AS barely 8%. That's another paycut.

Living in base, at VX I can easily do 90 hrs credit per month and have 16 days off per month. Under AS, all lines are pre-built 75-85 max (some flex months drive it higher). But lines are capped, and there is also a upper limit on how much you can swap and add credit to your line. On a typical 15-16 day off line, I will now only get ~78-85 hrs credit. For the same amount of days I work now, I will earn less hours. So this will be another paycut once I'm on their rules.

We have personal days at VX which I usually cash out. AS doesn't have any. Another paycut

Our reserves get 13 days off per month, AS gets 12. If I upgrade and go on reserve, that's 12 less days off per year. What cost do you put on that? And the QOL? Another virtual paycut.

Alaskas line system and step trading has less flexibility than what I have now. Another paycut


I get 125% on anything above 80 hrs credit per month, this VX provision is gone as of Dec 1st as we switch to AS system. Another paycut

24 hr layovers have an extra min day pay in our pairings (add 3.5 hrs). This is gone Dec 1st. Another paycut

There are other examples. Those are off the top of my head. We will be transitioned over to the AS stuff soon, but you know it's bad when you're told "it's actually in our interest to stay on our stuff as long as possible....."

So @wheelsup , no I didn't just get a 30%. While it looks that way for actual hourly rate itself, once you take out all the stuff I'm losing for the switch to Alaska's contract, the "actual realized" pay increase is much less!!!!

Work rules are so important. It's really hard to compare apples/apples between contracts because of the various ways that a pay rate is either multiplied or divided by the work rules.

Good luck man.

 

[Kingairer]

Skywest bought ASA in 2006. For the math challenged that was 11 years ago.
Skywest bought XJT in 2010. For the math challenged that was 7 years ago.

Apparently in your world a SEVEN YEAR merger process is preferable to ~one?!?

How did that work out for US Airways and America West?

How many contract cycles will Alaska have now that the merger is complete? At least one in 2020, probably another in 2023, and another in 2026. All opportunities to better the contract.

Or, they could just wait SEVEN YEARS (or in US Airways case roughly nine) to have an agreement, in which case they’ve been working under a lesser contract for the entire time!

Base hits people. Base hits.

excellent point and was the reason I voted yes at AA and would do it again.

 

[jtrain609]

I’m not following your not following.

You're saying they're hiring 7,000 pilots in the next 3 years?

 

[Kingairer]

Read above. It's more than just pay. So far from switching to Alaskas profit share and operational bonus, I've taken a paycut. Last year for the operational bonus I got ~$1,400 under VX's scheme, this year under AS = $0. 2016 FY profit share at VX paid out 12.25%, AS barely 8%. That's another paycut.

Living in base, at VX I can easily do 90 hrs credit per month and have 16 days off per month. Under AS, all lines are pre-built 75-85 max (some flex months drive it higher). But lines are capped, and there is also a upper limit on how much you can swap and add credit to your line. On a typical 15-16 day off line, I will now only get ~78-85 hrs credit. For the same amount of days I work now, I will earn less hours. So this will be another paycut once I'm on their rules.

We have personal days at VX which I usually cash out. AS doesn't have any. Another paycut

Our reserves get 13 days off per month, AS gets 12. If I upgrade and go on reserve, that's 12 less days off per year. What cost do you put on that? And the QOL? Another virtual paycut.

Alaskas line system and step trading has less flexibility than what I have now. Another paycut


I get 125% on anything above 80 hrs credit per month, this VX provision is gone as of Dec 1st as we switch to AS system. Another paycut

24 hr layovers have an extra min day pay in our pairings (add 3.5 hrs). This is gone Dec 1st. Another paycut

There are other examples. Those are off the top of my head. We will be transitioned over to the AS stuff soon, but you know it's bad when you're told "it's actually in our interest to stay on our stuff as long as possible....."

So @wheelsup , no I didn't just get a 30%. While it looks that way for actual hourly rate itself, once you take out all the stuff I'm losing for the switch to Alaska's contract, the "actual realized" pay increase is much less!!!!

Mergers are fun.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Mergers are fun.

Yes they are, not my first either

 

[AAPalmTree]

You're saying they're hiring 7,000 pilots in the next 3 years?

No. We are planning on hiring about 2,700 over the next 3 years.

If we furlough 3,000 (as mentioned in a post)

Retire in the next 3 years= 1,937

Hiring in the next 3 years= 2,700


Furloughs and retirement over next 3= (-4,937 pilots)

If you add the 2,700 we also don’t hire
It is a total loss over 3 years: 7,637

 

[jtrain609]

Still not following you.

If you were to furlough 3,000, itd take 3 years to recover 2,000 of those jobs.

 

[AAPalmTree]

Still not following you.

If you were to furlough 3,000, itd take 3 years to recover 2,000 of those jobs.

If we continue to hire 900/yr it would take 3 years to recoup most of the 3,000.

I’m saying the airline couldn’t handle being that short. Besides having 3,000 less pilots in 3 years (if the furlough lasted that long) the airline would actually have 4,937 less pilots than now. Don’t think an airline could come back from that. They’d have to bring almost 5,000 pilots to the line instantly plus the 1,000/year they have to train to keep up with the retirements beyond year 3.

 

[Kingairer]

Read above. It's more than just pay. So far from switching to Alaskas profit share and operational bonus, I've taken a paycut. Last year for the operational bonus I got ~$1,400 under VX's scheme, this year under AS = $0. 2016 FY profit share at VX paid out 12.25%, AS barely 8%. That's another paycut.

Living in base, at VX I can easily do 90 hrs credit per month and have 16 days off per month. Under AS, all lines are pre-built 75-85 max (some flex months drive it higher). But lines are capped, and there is also a upper limit on how much you can swap and add credit to your line. On a typical 15-16 day off line, I will now only get ~78-85 hrs credit. For the same amount of days I work now, I will earn less hours. So this will be another paycut once I'm on their rules.

We have personal days at VX which I usually cash out. AS doesn't have any. Another paycut

Our reserves get 13 days off per month, AS gets 12. If I upgrade and go on reserve, that's 12 less days off per year. What cost do you put on that? And the QOL? Another virtual paycut.

Alaskas line system and step trading has less flexibility than what I have now. Another paycut


I get 125% on anything above 80 hrs credit per month, this VX provision is gone as of Dec 1st as we switch to AS system. Another paycut

24 hr layovers have an extra min day pay in our pairings (add 3.5 hrs). This is gone Dec 1st. Another paycut

There are other examples. Those are off the top of my head. We will be transitioned over to the AS stuff soon, but you know it's bad when you're told "it's actually in our interest to stay on our stuff as long as possible....."

So @wheelsup , no I didn't just get a 30%. While it looks that way for actual hourly rate itself, once you take out all the stuff I'm losing for the switch to Alaska's contract, the "actual realized" pay increase is much less!!!!

You're taking the tone of a victim which I really don't think, you think, you are.

 

[ClarkGriswold]

Instead of attacking what I say, you just attack me. Got it.

Swinging for the fences has been APA's blunder over and over again. In order to improve contracts one must improve them over time, not in one massive session. Take the good when you can, combined with short contract lengths, and over time you get to where you need to be.

Quite honestly I'm not sure what you guys were expecting. This was an arbitrated session in order to combine pilot groups. This wasn't a negotiated contract.

I didn't realize Lee Moak was a member of JC or flew for AA!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You're taking the tone of a victim which I really don't think, you think, you are.

Not a victim. I understand that long term this merger makes sense and both carriers stand a better chance of survival from this. Still, just addressing the guy saying "pilots will be pilots" and complain about a "30% raise." The payraise itself does not paint the entire picture, that was my point.

 

[wheelsup]

SkyWest was never going to merge with ASA, so that's moot.

As far as the ASA/XJT merger goes, arbitration could make things WORSE and they would still be in the same boat trying to improve 7 years later back to where they were. Arbitration is rarely good for the pilot group. It takes away the only leverage that the pilots have, and solidifies the advantage of management.

Besides, in this case, losing scope is a big freaking deal. I would rather operate with scope protections for 7 years during a JCBA negotiation as opposed to lose those protections in arbitration and spend the next negotiating cycle trying to get that genie back in the bottle. No thanks.

They didn’t lose scope. They never had it.

 

[BobDDuck]

We didn't chose, it was already a defined process in Alaska's 2013 contract. Direct negotiations, mediated negotiations, and once an impasse declared, off to arbitration. The entire process was followed. We did negotiate, it didn't go anywhere.

I just want to point out that if VX had unionized early enough to get a contract in place prior to this merger, the terms of their contract would have come in to play and driven the end result. Because they had no CBA in place and had no legal claim to anything other than ALPA merger policy, this was simply a continuation of Alaska's current contract with a few small changes as created by the arbitrator. Alaska management knew this and as such made no attempt to actually negotiate anything so it was just pushed to arbitration.

Lesson learned here... if you aren't the biggest property out there, make damn sure you have a contract in place.

(I know CC knows this... I was just using his post as a intro to say that)

 

[wheelsup]

Not a victim. I understand that long term this merger makes sense and both carriers stand a better chance of survival from this. Still, just addressing the guy saying "pilots will be pilots" and complain about a "30% raise." The payraise itself does not paint the entire picture, that was my point.

I don’t have much time to respond right now but to your point of monthly credit going down, that increases jobs and people below you. Same idea at AA with their IMAX. Yes it limits earnings but keeps people employed. Kinda like what a real union tries to do. So if anything it’s a wash and IMO a big gain for you guys.

You lose a day off on reserve and some miniscule amount of profit sharing when you upgrade. But in return you make (guessing on longevity) $50/hr more over your VX rates plus another four hours a month plus another 3.5% which grosses out at a + $68,900.

Minus your piddly $1,400 in profit sharing and another 12 days of work a month gives you an extra $5600 for each of those days, so there’s your price.

Neither had scope so you didn’t “lose” that, can’t lose what you don’t have.

If anything it’s the Alaska guys that should be upset, they got jack with this merger, it was a stupid waste of money. Now here’s hoping jetBlue buys Spirit at $55/share so I can get my Panamera.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I don’t have much time to respond right now but to your point of monthly credit going down, that increases jobs and people below you. Same idea at AA with their IMAX. Yes it limits earnings but keeps people employed. Kinda like what a real union tries to do. So if anything it’s a wash and IMO a big gain for you guys.

Keeps people employed? There's no one un-employed here. Our hiring is for growth mostly and little amounts of retirements. Here you are saying credit going down is a good thing so we have to hire more people? Gee, I guess that's one way to look at it (hello Management). Or, a reasonable person could say that we are now gonna get paid less hours for the same amount of days worked. It's a cut by definition. Most pilots (apparently I incorrectly assume) want the most amount of money, for the least amount of days worked. So if I fly 14 days and can get 90 hrs, that's great. Now if I work 14 days and only get 75-83 hrs, that's a cut. Any other explanation sounds like a "spread the wealth" type argument about getting newhires, expansion, etc. That will come from growth and retirements.

You lose a day off on reserve and some miniscule amount of profit sharing when you upgrade. But in return you make (guessing on longevity) $50/hr more over your VX rates plus another four hours a month plus another 3.5% which grosses out at a + $68,900.

A day off on reserve is a huge deal. AS reserve rules suck, and I mean absolutely suck. I don't know what you price losing a reserve day, but to me 12 days on reserve lost back to the company is a huge deal. And I didn't get a $50/hr raise. I've run the math for my personal situation and it's nowhere close to 68,900 extra.

Minus your piddly $1,400 in profit sharing and another 12 days of work a month gives you an extra $5600 for each of those days, so there’s your price.

1,400 was quarterly bonus for meeting operational metrics. Profit share is extra on top of that. This year my profit share was 15,500. Regardless, you are attempting to quantify numerical $ values that you can't accurately do unless you have the actual numbers from working a month here, to working a month under their rules.

Neither had scope so you didn’t “lose” that, can’t lose what you don’t have.

I know, the implication was quite clear that the pilot group lost the ALPA scope proposal.

If anything it’s the Alaska guys that should be upset, they got jack with this merger, it was a stupid waste of money. Now here’s hoping jetBlue buys Spirit at $55/share so I can get my Panamera.

You work at Spirit? I guess I see where you're coming from. From an outsider, I think you are limited in what you can really say about the inner going ons here and what we gain or lose. It'd be like me telling you about your line bidding and how PBS is actually a good deal, and you're being unreasonable for not seeing that. Unless you are in their shoes and see what they currently have, stand to gain, and stand to lose, then there's really no definite conclusive statements you can make about how that pilot group should feel.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I just want to point out that if VX had unionized early enough to get a contract in place prior to this merger, the terms of their contract would have come in to play and driven the end result. Because they had no CBA in place and had no legal claim to anything other than ALPA merger policy, this was simply a continuation of Alaska's current contract with a few small changes as created by the arbitrator. Alaska management knew this and as such made no attempt to actually negotiate anything so it was just pushed to arbitration.

Lesson learned here... if you aren't the biggest property out there, make damn sure you have a contract in place.

(I know CC knows this... I was just using his post as a intro to say that)

No denying this. I hope jetBlue guys get a contract soon, if only because a merger is not a matter of if but when. jetBlue will either be buying an airline or be bought.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

No denying this. I hope jetBlue guys get a contract soon, if only because a merger is not a matter of if but when. jetBlue will either be buying an airline or be bought.

Amen. This week will be very telling.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

They didn’t lose scope. They never had it.

Okay, fine, but that doesn't alter my point. It is better to negotiate than to arbitrate, from the pilot group's point of view. This deal would never pass if it were voted on, and that should be enough to show that arbitration sucks.