declaring

[A1TAPE]

We don't use radar; we have tools to flight follow visually - WSI Fusion, Sabre Flight Explorer, etc. This is purely supplemental information however and not the official source for flight monitoring, which in my case is the crew-reported block times. They will generally call times back to the station via VHF. Ha, ACARS

How is it not an official source if its in real time?

 

[who'swho]

How is it not an official source if its in real time?

It's for reference only. Whatever program you use to track the fleet is considered primary means of flight following.

 

[BayouMLU]

I've never had problems getting the crew to pickup. Left a VM a couple of times but they usually call back by the time I hang up.

Especially when there are usually at least 3 of them, sometimes many more.

Tower, station ops, ticket counter, gate, bag office, airport police, station manager cell phone, airport ops, etc. Someone eventually answers and then I ask them if this is a good number for me to give to the NTSB when I call to report the aircraft missing. The aircraft is usually found within the next few seconds.

 

[A1TAPE]

121.577 says that in an emergency that if you cannot communicate with the crew in an emergency (plane overdue and atc not sure if it landed or not, think uncontrolled field and crew didnt cancel clearance) then

If the aircraft dispatcher cannot communicate with the pilot, he shall declare an emergency and take any action that he considers necessary under the circumstances.

By any action do they mean like if you have the numbers of the crew to keep calling until they pickup and leave multiple VMs or go about it another way?

 

[bbmikej]

By any action do they mean like if you have the numbers of the crew to keep calling until they pickup and leave multiple VMs or go about it another way?

If the crew is in an outstation they will most certainly have a hotel and someone in the office should know which one. You can always call the hotel and tell them to have the crew call you. If there is someone in ops they should be able to physically go out and see if there is an aircraft there. If you need to you can even call the fuelers to check and see. While not ideal I would think that declaring an emergency is a last resort.

 

[Cptnchia]

By any action do they mean like if you have the numbers of the crew to keep calling until they pickup and leave multiple VMs[ /QUOTE]

Not a good idea, especially if the crew is on a short layover. That would constitute a disruption to crew rest and depending on rest time, result in a delayed departure the next day

 

[who'swho]

Not a good idea, especially if the crew is on a short layover. That would constitute a disruption to crew rest and depending on rest time, result in a delayed departure the next day

Crew rest be damned when you are trying to track down an overdue flight. Crew rest doesn't matter if the aircraft is a smoking hole in the ground. The reality is you should be calling people in the 1st 15 min of losing the aircraft on radar. This would not be affecting crew rest at this point anyways.

 

[crow]

Crew rest be damned when you are trying to track down an overdue flight. Crew rest doesn't matter if the aircraft is a smoking hole in the ground. The reality is you should be calling people in the 1st 15 min of losing the aircraft on radar. This would not be affecting crew rest at this point anyways.

Alternate solution: calling the hotel and asking if they have checked in to their rooms yet. You then know if they are at the hotel and you haven't interrupted their crew rest.

 

[BWER]

Alternate solution: calling the hotel and asking if they have checked in to their rooms yet. You then know if they are at the hotel and you haven't interrupted their crew rest.

Or maybe the crew does their job and closes out their flight with atc and dispatch.

Let it cut into the crew rest so they can explain it.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[who'swho]

Alternate solution: calling the hotel and asking if they have checked in to their rooms yet. You then know if they are at the hotel and you haven't interrupted their crew rest.

If you are calling the hotel then you aren't flight following very well (which is your 1st priority as a dispatcher). By the time they check into the hotel your flight is 30+mins overdue. Declaring an emergency 30mins after ETA is pretty much pointless.

 

[bbmikej]

Not a good idea, especially if the crew is on a short layover. That would constitute a disruption to crew rest and depending on rest time, result in a delayed departure the next day

As far as i'm concerned they are still on the clock. Until the on and in times are in my computer they are still working. If that means they take a delay in the morning, so be it.

 

[crow]

If you are calling the hotel then you aren't flight following very well (which is your 1st priority as a dispatcher). By the time they check into the hotel your flight is 30+mins overdue. Declaring an emergency 30mins after ETA is pretty much pointless.

not going to argue that point. however there are those crews/stations that you can never get in contact with on that last flight of the night into an uncontrolled airport without ACARS. you can make all the phone calls you want in as timely a fashion as you can.....doesnt mean the person on the other end will pick up the line.

 

[A1TAPE]

As far as i'm concerned they are still on the clock. Until the on and in times are in my computer they are still working. If that means they take a delay in the morning, so be it.

From my understand the OFF and ON times come in right away from ACARS when the Weight On Wheels sensor is activate with takeoff and landing. Speaking of which If three bounces on landing and i don't mean like a soft bounce but a real teeth cruncher, would it be enough to trip the WoW sensor and trigger an ON time even thought the plane is climbing thru 500 feet on a Go Around?

 

[A1TAPE]

I thought ACARS was all automated and didnt need any airport specific stuff. Like the IN and OUT times are recorded by parking brake application or engine shutdown whichever comes first and ON OFF are thru the WoW sensor.

 

[crow]

I thought ACARS was all automated and didnt need any airport specific stuff. Like the IN and OUT times are recorded by parking brake application or engine shutdown whichever comes first and ON OFF are thru the WoW sensor.

ACARS does report automatically.....but it needs a relay that will catch the signal and send it on back to the company. think of it like a cell phone....try to send a text without a cell tower and your message never leaves your phone. ACARS functions the same way. and thats assuming the ACARS is working on the plane at all.

 

[A1TAPE]

I thought ACARS was sat link based or ground station based.

 

[crow]

"ACARS can send messages over VHF if a VHF ground station network exists in the current area of the aircraft. VHF communication is line-of-sight propagation and the typical range is up to 200 nautical miles at high altitudes. Where VHF is absent, an HF network or satellite communication may be used if available. Satellite coverage may be limited at high latitudes (trans-polar flights)."

The kicker there is when using a VHF comm system (the vast majority of ACARS units use this) then its line of sight for coverage. That is why, for example, you could be in SLC and not get ACARS to work at the gate, but you start taxiing to the runway and it magically starts to work again. More than one ACARS unit has been deferred over this.

 

[A1TAPE]

satellite communication may be used if available. Satellite coverage may be limited at high latitudes (trans-polar flights).

Dont pretty much all ACARS units have the ability to send ACARS data over SAT instead of VHF?

 

[bbmikej]

Dont pretty much all ACARS units have the ability to send ACARS data over SAT instead of VHF?

Not necessarily on regional aircraft. There are stations without ACARS that once they get in the air you get a data dump of on/in from the previous flight and then out/off from the current flight. And we are assuming that the ACARS has a 100% up time. There are many times where it locks up mid-flight and will not be usable again until it is reset on the ground at which point the ON and IN haven't captured.

 

[Cptnchia]

As far as i'm concerned they are still on the clock. Until the on and in times are in my computer they are still working. If that means they take a delay in the morning, so be it.

Here's the thing. Crews don't care about how you're concerned. Once I set the brake, you have 30 minutes to call, then, the CEO could call me directly, and I will not answer the phone until I duty back in the morning. I am under no obligation to respond to ANY company communication while in rest.

As far as declaring an emergency, you could call out the National Guard to check the airport. I guarantee that there would be no blowback on the crew from FltOps. (At least where I work.) There are systems in place to prevent such a thing happening. If your company does not have them, you might want to evaluate the long term viability of a company willing to skimp on resources.