Hand Flown RNAV SIDS and STARS

derg

derg

Apparently a "terse" writer
Staff member
So in recurrent, we had to handfly a SID and a STAR, which is kind of 'uhh, just follow the flight director and monitor your flightpath and airspeed… Le snore"

But apparently the FAA has largely mandated that we all cover this in QC, but not necessarily because of our group having deviations, but from the 121 group as a whole.

What in the world is going on out there?
 
"So why the hell am I hand flying the full RNAV departure out of PDX again?"

(sigh and a groan from the simulator panel)

BTW, @PeanuckleCRJ, you are eagerly awaited back in the school house. They're gonna mess with you.
 
At our shop I don't recall having a mandatory restriction of AP on for RNAV SID/STARs. Why not just follow the FD, and zero out any left or right deviation visible on the ND? Best technique I learned from a checkairman was to line up the green diamond with the green line on the ND. If the diamond is to the left, turn a bit to the right and line it up. And if the diamond is to the right, turn slightly left and line it up. Easy :)

When handflying, you can follow the FD and still show like a .02 right on the ND. Using the diamond-line-up technique on the ND and you will always have 0 lateral deviation.
 
Derg said:
So in recurrent, we had to handfly a SID and a STAR, which is kind of 'uhh, just follow the flight director and monitor your flightpath and airspeed… Le snore"

But apparently the FAA has largely mandated that we all cover this in QC, but not necessarily because of our group having deviations, but from the 121 group as a whole.

What in the world is going on out there?
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I'm curious, what how much lateral or vertical deviation trips a FOQA flag? Because to my dumb brain it seems like given the aids available to a modern 121 crew it shouldn't be rocket surgery to keep the bar if not dead nuts, at least well within ATP tolerances even handflying.
 
@Roger Roger , I'll email our FOQA dude, but tripping FOQA isn't really linear.

There are a handful of "exceedences" that aren't really exceedences. I'm not sure how much of a lateral deviation triggers an event. Altitude is pretty easy to measure.
We often get "climb to FL230" in the middle of a SID, which of course negates all altitude constraints. That would trip all the FOQA alt constraints, because it's too dumb to understand when and why a pilot selects vs manages a climb (Airbus terms). On the same side of the coin, a pilot may be too stupid and busts a "climb via" because they select open climb (Airbus term for unrestricted climb). This is why we have guys at the home office who scrub the data.
 
Nark said:
@Roger Roger , I'll email our FOQA dude, but tripping FOQA isn't really linear.

There are a handful of "exceedences" that aren't really exceedences. I'm not sure how much of a lateral deviation triggers an event. Altitude is pretty easy to measure.
We often get "climb to FL230" in the middle of a SID, which of course negates all altitude constraints. That would trip all the FOQA alt constraints, because it's too dumb to understand when and why a pilot selects vs manages a climb (Airbus terms). On the same side of the coin, a pilot may be too stupid and busts a "climb via" because they select open climb (Airbus term for unrestricted climb). This is why we have guys at the home office who scrub the data.
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Hey dude, I would love to learn about this too - if you think about it, can you send me some info?

By the way, sorry I've been scarce - did you try to call the other day? Been getting some emails, I've just have been too lazy to reply - you're staying safe right?

/hijack
 
Nark said:
@Roger Roger , I'll email our FOQA dude, but tripping FOQA isn't really linear.

There are a handful of "exceedences" that aren't really exceedences. I'm not sure how much of a lateral deviation triggers an event. Altitude is pretty easy to measure.
We often get "climb to FL230" in the middle of a SID, which of course negates all altitude constraints. That would trip all the FOQA alt constraints, because it's too dumb to understand when and why a pilot selects vs manages a climb (Airbus terms). On the same side of the coin, a pilot may be too stupid and busts a "climb via" because they select open climb (Airbus term for unrestricted climb). This is why we have guys at the home office who scrub the data.
Click to expand...
Wow. Your FOQA is dumb, for such a smart airplane.
 
Does this have to do with the FAA wanting 121 pilots to hand fly more as to not rely so heavily on automation? I remember in recurrent a few years ago and every subsequent event they were stressing this big time. Even had to takeoff and land with all automation off(You lost the whole FCP). Flying a SID or STAR off autopilot is really no big deal. @Cherokee_Cruiser, I was taught the same thing too with regards to the green diamond.
 
It doesn't bother me, I typically hand fly the SIDs and occasionally a star towards the end if the situation allows for it. (Weather, traffic, mechanical issues). Recurrent this year they had us hand flying to mins single engine. I've had the autopilot deferred a number of times this last year, so it's probably good for me.

Also, I'm not a captain but at my regional a large majority of the FOs haven't flown turbines before and very, very rarely kick the autopilot off. I see it jumpseating pretty often. It'd be a good thing if everyone hand flew a little more.

On the Airbus I assume its very rare to kick all automation off?
 
@Ayork62493

Yes, It's very rare to fly the bus without some sort of automation, on takeoff.
I've done 2, maybe 3 no-FD takeoff's. It's amazing it flies just like a 172, well perhaps a 182.

For landing, a lot of the time either dude will kick off the auto pilot and thrust. Again, flies just like a 182.

Maybe a little easier than a 182.
 
Derg said:
So in recurrent, we had to handfly a SID and a STAR, which is kind of 'uhh, just follow the flight director and monitor your flightpath and airspeed… Le snore"

But apparently the FAA has largely mandated that we all cover this in QC, but not necessarily because of our group having deviations, but from the 121 group as a whole.

What in the world is going on out there?
Click to expand...

I read somewhere that the FAA was going to start putting more emphasis on hand flying up to altitude and down the arrival. I seen the article after the Lear accident in TEB a few months ago, but i'm not sure what the push behind it was.
 
I think the whole sort of thing varies wildly from carrier to carrier. At my former regional shop you were required to fly all RNAV departures with the FD on and AP engaged at minimum engagement height.

At my current shop there is no requirement whatsoever to do so. I have yet to fly with anyone here who flies any departure at all with the AP on and on occasion some who don't use the FD at all until midway to cruise altitude.

Individual airline culture thing perhaps?
 
It's hit or miss with guys at my shop. Unless it's like a super early flight or the PM is getting a lot thrown at him/her I like to hand fly. Some are the same way and others like AP at minimum engagement height. Especially with visual approaches, it's way easier for me to just to click off the AP and FD and just visually turn base to final or downwind base final than messing with the FCP. My first recurrent was a few months ago and we had an AP failure out of LGA on the Whitestone climb. Came back around to shoot the ILS 22 or 13. I don't remember which one.
 
Derg said:
So in recurrent, we had to handfly a SID and a STAR, which is kind of 'uhh, just follow the flight director and monitor your flightpath and airspeed… Le snore"

But apparently the FAA has largely mandated that we all cover this in QC, but not necessarily because of our group having deviations, but from the 121 group as a whole.

What in the world is going on out there?
Click to expand...

Derg said:
"So why the hell am I hand flying the full RNAV departure out of PDX again?"

(sigh and a groan from the simulator panel)

BTW, @PeanuckleCRJ, you are eagerly awaited back in the school house. They're gonna mess with you.
Click to expand...

Handflying a SID and STAR (for the other users, yes, we are allowed to hand fly them on the line as much as we want) were required by the FAA to be put into recurrent as part of the emphasis to be able to manually handle the aircraft in all phases. This is all part of the larger picture going into advanced jet upset when the outside the envelope data is finally loaded into the sims.

Yeah... kinda dumb on fifi, but you know... FAA. Flipping her upside down in a stall will be more fun. :). Push, roll, power, recover! This is just one of many facets on the battle against loss of control in flight accidents that are far and away the biggest issue these days.
 
Personally, I typically hand fly up to 18 or so, and all but one of my approaches on the 330 have been hand flown with the autothrust off. I'm an outlier, as I've only seen one landing flown by someone else with the autothrust off. Hand flying varies, from below 1000 feet up to like what I do to 18 or the low 20s.
 
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